Konny and Konig engines

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread post by RARING TO GO » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:25 pm

ianw wrote:Your still missing my point Michel!!!! :roll: :roll:
I have nothing against steel liners or their ability to seal.
I'm saying that to achieve a power output that Konny are claiming, in an engine that is untried in road racing & to change the motor from a total loss water system to a circulating water system is a massive jump.
I'm trying to point out that ALUMINUM liners would be a safe option given expansion rates & as Howard points out, generated friction, also to achieve the greater power output with less friction generated losses to come any where near Konny's claimed power.

As for your comment " work that one out ", I would hazard a guess that the "steel" liner has a top hat on it & under the top hat is an "O" ring used to seal the water cavity / cylinder block. The top hat then forms the mating surface of what ever gasket is used to match up to the cylinder head surface. Am I :shock: :shock: any where close?
I don't know the lay out of the transfer ports or the water ways so I cant comment on anything to do with sealing in that area, if it is necessary that is.
Ian, I dont disagree with anything you have said except the poo hooing of the BHP figures which is an insult to the Konny boys. I have asked them, "why not use ally liners with a high silicon content then Nicasil is not required?" They tried to keep the status quo on price and reliability, changing to ally or nikasil liners would have been an unknown. They do not have unlimited funds for R&D. They are new to "Bikes" and will when requested give different things a shot if they are do-able. You got it bang on with the liner set up.

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ianw
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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread post by ianw » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:42 pm

Cheers, Michel :)

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread post by tonybsa2008 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:12 pm

BHP,irrelevant.Get them out on the track and lets see how they get on,and a lot of people will get a lot of pleasure seeing them out there including me.
When the flag drops the bull***t stops!

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread post by RARING TO GO » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:49 pm

"Voila vous avez ce droit!" Tony,
But they wont be allowed in the UK class is my guess.

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread post by tonybsa2008 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:03 pm

Not in the classic club me thinks,but they are in the Fsra post classic/350 championship.Dates are on the front of the site.Stu at Martek is the eligibilty guy for the post classic.

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread post by Bob B » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:09 pm

Thanks Tony, the message may percolate through - eventually :roll:
It is true about the sidecar family - you can stop racing but you can never, ever leave!

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread post by RARING TO GO » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:16 pm

tonybsa2008 wrote:Not in the classic club me thinks,but they are in the Fsra post classic/350 championship.Dates are on the front of the site.Stu at Martek is the eligibilty guy for the post classic.
I will speak to Stu to morrow as he is making the farings for me al la Windle late 70's. See you at the FSRA meetings then.

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread post by tonybsa2008 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:48 am

Bob,I must get marks for trying?or is that being trying!Michel,we look forward to seeing you out.
Out of curiousity,is this the longest thread ever?

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread post by Bob B » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:59 am

OK Tony, award yourself five house points and a Silver star :lol: IIRC there have been one or two threads longer but no doubt Steve will put us right ;)
It is true about the sidecar family - you can stop racing but you can never, ever leave!

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread post by RARING TO GO » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:04 am

Had a long discussion with Rixyracing the Konny UK agent who has 35 years plus continuous experience with Konig and Konny power heads.
Aluminium liners; Tried, with no advantage but too expensive and poor durability.
Changing from Methanol to Pump gas; Lake Windemere Water speed record, methanol 112 MPH, same engine, same heads, same main jets, only change was to the ingnition timming, Water speed record !06 mph.
Total loss water cooling vs circulated water; 80 deg C is the optimum, modern water pumps and radiators will easily cope with power output.
Any questions? I will put them to him.

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ianw
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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread post by ianw » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:07 pm

Tony, this thread is going to rumble on into the New Year. :lol: :roll: :lol:
Michel,the figures & stats that you have quoted that have come from Rixyracing contradict all known science of comparisons of Petrol verses Alcohol, in this case Methanol.
Start with Air/Fuel ratio by weight, the ideal ratio for Petrol is 14.7 to 1, the ideal ratio for Methanol is 6.44 to 1, therefore,
you have to get more that double the volume of methanol into the combustion area to achieve any worthwhile comparison of Petrol verses Methanol. So using the same size main jet is a big no no.
The other bug which comes into play is compression ratio, if a Petrol engine is running a compression ratio of 10 to 1, then a Methanol engine will need to run a compression ratio of 13 to 1, plus double the volume of fuel to achieve a greater power output than the Petrol engine.
Typically, using a TEST 500cc engine, the engine run on Petrol with a 10 to 1 compression ratio with an Air/ Fuel ratio of 14.7 to 1
will produce roughly 49 BHP, whereas the TEST engine run on Methanol with a compression ratio 13 to 1 with an Air/Fuel of 6.44 to 1 ( double that of Petrol ) will produce roughly 54 BHP. These figures are from a TEST ENGINE, not any specific engine.
The source of this information is RICARDO, please tell me Michel that Rixyracing have heard of Ricardo?

As I said earlier, the proof of the pudding will be when someone from joe public sticks one of these engines on a Dyno & gets a reliable power output figure. Till then it's all conjecture especially the way that you are trying to justify Konnys claimed power output.
Good luck to Konny & anyone who puts their engines in Sidecars or Solo's, personally I'd give then Special Dispensation to race at Classic Meetings because if I were a rider within Classic Races I wouldn't be intimidated by their Power output claims, they will be quick.

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread post by Eddy Wright » Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:17 pm

Called in to D and D engineering (Windle) this morning to pick some bits up.

Dave was building a superb 350 chassis for himself.

But sat on another bench under construction was a new chassis with a 680cc Konny engine sat in. What a beautiful unit !

The build quality is superb and at £4k is truly remarkable value.
Eddy Wright
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Simon Smith
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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread post by Simon Smith » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:09 pm

Any pictures Ed?

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread post by RARING TO GO » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:19 pm

Taken today.
Attachments
Konig top tubes image.jpeg
konig with gearbox image.jpeg
KONIG SWING ARM SUPPORT image.jpeg

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ianw
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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread post by ianw » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:39 pm

Cant knock the engineering of the Konny engine, it is mechanical art.
I'm retired from sidecar racing but I'd love one in my living room :notworthy:

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