Konny and Konig engines

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lang
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Konny and Konig engines

Unread postby lang » Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:15 pm

After looking today at the new Konny engine it is clearly not a replica of the original Konig engine. It is very different in many ways, including appearance, because of this it is most unlikely to be eligible for either classic or post classic racing.

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread postby RARING TO GO » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:52 am

Howard, hopefully a considered opinion and not a seed of doubt planted to cause my project to fail before it starts? I am not really au fait with the classic scene, however am I correct in believing that replica Norton, Matchless and BSA engines which look nothing like their original spec inside or outside are acceptable? If this is so, how come in your considered opinion the Konny engine is not acceptable? I believe you are running a Konny crank in your engine or am I wrong?

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread postby ianw » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:29 pm

From my experience of being Sidecar Eligibility Secretary for Forgotten Era for many years I would say that as Howard say's,
if the engine looks vastly different from the original it shouldn't be allowed, if the differences outside are minor then it should be allowed.
It doesn't matter if the internals are 100% different to the original, that should be allowed.
I would say that nearly all Classic & Post classic engines are running modern internals in one form or another.
It's what the engine looks like that matters.

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread postby lang » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:51 pm

RARING TO GO wrote:Howard, hopefully a considered opinion and not a seed of doubt planted to cause my project to fail before it starts? I am not really au fait with the classic scene, however am I correct in believing that replica Norton, Matchless and BSA engines which look nothing like their original spec inside or outside are acceptable? If this is so, how come in your considered opinion the Konny engine is not acceptable? I believe you are running a Konny crank in your engine or am I wrong?


My opinion is in light of my experience of the Classic Club. When I decided to build a Konig outfit to race with the Classic Club I contacted them and told them of my intention, and was told that they had no evidence of a Konig sidecar being raced within the eligible period. But if I could furnish them with genuine proof that there had been Konigs raced as sidecars in the period they would have no option other than to allow it.

After completing the machine I sent the proof they asked for, I quote the reply I received from the eligibility officer: "I agree that the Konig is indeed eligible as a true classic, but after speaking to other competitors about your bike they would not wish it to race with the Classic Club - the reason being you might come and win !"

I found this reply incredible - I always thought the point of racing was to win - in fact if you are only there for the ride and not bothered about winning you should not be out there at all.

After some discussion with the eligibility officer he granted a temporary eligibility certificate with the warning "We will see how it goes".

I took it from this that if I raced with them and did well the eligibility certificate would be withdrawn.

This is in complete contrast to the Scottish Classic Racing Club, who had no hesitation in accepting it when I sent the information regarding eligibility earlier this year, and indeed made me very welcome at their Classic Bob McIntyre meeting at East Fortune.

Indeed my opinion is not aired to cause your project to fail, in fact I wish you well with it, and as you know from Dick I have offered you any assistance I can help with. I would not wish anyone to have the same bad experience I had in trying to bring some variety into sidecar racing.

I now quote from the Classic Clubs rules on eligibility:-

ENGINE: The external appearance of all engine components must be maintained as per the original engine
manufacturer's specification, unless it can be conclusively shown that any external modifications made are
from within the relevant period. The internal specification of all engines is free from restriction, but the
machines must be entered in the correct capacity class and their actual capacity declared.


By the way, the crankshafts in my own Konig engines are Hoekle not Konny.

Looking forward to seeing you and Dave Cheesmond at the weekend. Best wishes, Howard.

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread postby anp » Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:57 pm

I find that incredible as well I would make a fibreglass cover for the engine :lol:

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread postby RARING TO GO » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:45 am

I personally dont want anything to do with classic racing in this country period, it is a sham for all the reasons you pointed out. The European clubs are far less annal in their rulings.

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread postby tonybsa2008 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:46 pm

The reply that Howard recieved from the classic club,sidecar eligibility officer,confirms what I have suspected for many years,they are ANTI 2 STROKE full stop,unless of course its uncompetitve,in which case your welcome.Its Ok to distort history by running BMWs,Weslakes,Norton Commandos and Imps in Bigger capacitys than they raced in period,and in wider chassis,which no longer bear more than a passing resemblance to classic sidecars,in short,its becoming a silouette series,with the exception of a few original style outfits.The evidence is out there,in period photographs,and books.

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread postby dick tapken » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:12 pm

do's it really matter all this petty sniding do's us no good in the long run i could walk through many classic meeting's here and abroad and see bike's that no way represent what year or whatever they are suppossed to be (mine included) get real stop the bloody moaning ,if folk want to ride them so what ,make's you laugh this cos usually the one's doing the most slanging are the one's that dod'nt ever do much anyway rant over!! :)

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread postby tonybsa2008 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:15 pm

If thats the case Dick,then let Howard race his Konig.I use to race in the classic club,and I find that period of sidecar racing fascinating,but now,Ive even lost interest in going to watch "classic"club race meetings,and the solo classes are even worse.

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread postby dick tapken » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:25 pm

over the year's iv'e been riding i have seen all that this bickering and sniplng and all it ever do's is split everyone up and that is just not good for the sport if it's got 3 wheel's ride it!! :cry:

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread postby steve-e » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:15 pm

Think we need to move this onto classic section rather than in classifieds. Mods if you see this ;) I'm driving !
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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread postby kface » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:26 pm

Big entries in Belgium. Didn't get there myself this year,but I heard there were over seventy outfits at one or two meetings. Perhaps the reason is that you can bring what you like and they will fit you in for a ride. They don't mind if you go and pee on their chips.Their motto seems to be RACINGS FUN!!!

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread postby sidecar bloke » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:00 pm

Marvellous, marvellous things these forums - by tapping a few keys you can send information all over the world, whether it's true or false.

Howard's initial posting:- "after looking today at the new Konny engine it is clearly not a replica of the original Konig engine. It is very different in many ways, including appearance - because of this it is most unlikely to be eligiible for either classic or post classic racing."

If Howard is correct and it does look vastly different then he is absolutely correct and my discussions with Howard, on the phone, were obviously not completely wasted. IanW's reply is also spot on - I don't know what the Forgotten Era regulations state but I do know that in the Classic Club the internals are basically "free" but the outside must, from a short distance away, appear the same as the original.

Howard's next post:- "when I decided to build a Konig outfit to race with the Classic Club I contacted them and told them of my intention....." This is wholly false - the outfit that Howard had constructed is a thing of beauty but sadly when he built it he appears to have built it to HIS specification rather than any club rules.

The next paragraph "after completing the machine............" is pure fantasy. Howard did send me clippings from a 1966 Motorcycle magazine where it mentioned an outfit in Germany using a Konig. Konig's started buiilding engines in 1925 and have built some 250 variations. The Konig sidecar engine as we know it, with heavy involvement from Kim Newcombe, did not appear before our 1967 cut-off datge for 2-strokes. So, as Howard says in his initial posting, the engine does not replicate that which was used in the 1966 machine. A comparison would be that in the Classic Club you can use a 750cc single overhead cam Honda - but what you cannot use is a Fireblade engine - well Honda's were used in the period so I thought I'd use this one - wrong!

The initial eligibility application form was sent with a photograph absolutely side on. The Classic Club has rules regarding rim and tyre size which the paperwork confirmed it had. However, if you see photos of the outfit from the rear or the front the wheels are way, way too wide. I did offer Howard, before we discovered the wheels were incorrect, eligibility to run in our Post Classic Period 4 class. He wasn't interested - he wanted Period 3 classic. Because at that time I didn't know as much about Konigs as I do now I offered him temporary (twelve months) eligiblity (still unaware of the wheel issue) - this giving me time to sort the facts and figures out. No attempt to enter a race meeting was ever made although the outfit was seen in the paddock on occasion. After sending the temporary eligibility I was never contacted again.

If you refer to Tony Wheatley's statement that the Classic Club is anti 2-stroke this too is complete rubbish. I have, over the last year been pressurising a certain gentleman to bring out a twin-engined Cressent. I love the diversity of engines and chassis that appeared in the period and would welcome any type of outfit that is built to the rules, whatever the engine.

Please, if you are going to support someone's views on the forum make sure that he's not leading you up the garden path.

Ian Johnson
CRMC Eligibility Officer

P.S. I've left out the threats of legal action that were made if I didn't grant eligibility as I don't wish to inflame the situation. I'd like to emphasise that these threats were not made by Howard but a supporter of his cause.

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Unread postby sidecar bloke » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:00 pm

It's good to see everyone's in the Christmas spirit already.

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Re: Konny and Konig engines

Unread postby gatekeeper » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:05 pm

i think its time to put the rose tinted glasses away---ive seen the newer konny motors does it matter if it is not exact its still in the spirit of the earlier konigs but a lot more reliable and wont chuck water everywhere :)
just one more lap and i'll have him

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