Konny and Konig engines

[bruce moore]

vmcc ! seems youv've missed an era Bob,or is that just being polite !!
i feel for people like Howard,trying to replicate times gone past ,seems people want to pick and choose who can race and what,shame.

[Simon Smith]

Bruce, it's not who can race but definitely is what can race. I wasn't around during this period so I am happy to listen to what people who were around have to say.

Can anybody tell me how much power these engines produce? I know somebody mentioned 160hp earlier. Is that realistic? I ask because I have already suggested elsewhere that there should be a HP limit to stop the 'creep' mentioned earlier. Let face it, classic racing shouldn't really be a development class should it?

[bruce moore]

simon,not here to argue mate,i love classics.especially the Retro bikes made by MR Equipe,Rod Bellas etc,they have certainly wet my appetite ,id personally would love a replica of Chris Vincents bike,wasted in the National Motorcycle Museum .

[Simon Smith]

Get it built Bruce!

Ged, with regard to race entries. Fill in the entry forms when they come out and post them all off together.

Whenever I have done this in the past I have not been a reserve.

[Norvin racing]

Get it built Bruce!

Ged, with regard to race entries. Fill in the entry forms when they come out and post them all off together.

Whenever I have done this in the past I have not been a reserve.

Ok Simon its good to know its a first come first served basis, it did not occur to me it might be over subscribed.

Ged

[den etheridge]

Bruce Moore. The club is not anti 2 stroke, the SAAB has been in the Meetings for many years,with different owner/drivers granted.

[lang]

Bruce, it's not who can race but definitely is what can race. I wasn't around during this period so I am happy to listen to what people who were around have to say.

Can anybody tell me how much power these engines produce? I know somebody mentioned 160hp earlier. Is that realistic? I ask because I have already suggested elsewhere that there should be a HP limit to stop the 'creep' mentioned earlier. Let face it, classic racing shouldn't really be a development class should it?

Simon, I would say that the claim of 160 bhp is most unrealistic ( could you imagine that through a 5" rear tyre ? ) the internals are not a lot different to the old engines. They have more transfer ports but not a lot more port volume. The original Konig factory claimed 75bhp at the crancshaft for the 500cc engine,I had mine on the rolling road at Dynobike of Malton to set the carburation and ignition, after several runs and adjustments its best reading was 62bhp at the rear wheel, the 680cc engine gives about 10bhp more. The bhp output of a sidecar outfit is not as important as the torque figure or the power to weight ratio.
The only true bhp readings are to be found on a Heenan-Froude type dynomometer, to give an example, it is possible to get around 95bhp from a very good weslake engine with a "flash" reading. When full load is applied to the dyno this drops to about 65bhp, this is the true reading. The moral is, beware of exaggerated power claims.

[bruce moore]

Bruce Moore. The club is not anti 2 stroke, the SAAB has been in the Meetings for many years,with different owner/drivers granted.

What are you a school teacher !
Civil tongue please, it's a forum not a courtroom

[LCR1000]

Howard, hopefully a considered opinion and not a seed of doubt planted to cause my project to fail before it starts? I am not really au fait with the classic scene, however am I correct in believing that replica Norton, Matchless and BSA engines which look nothing like their original spec inside or outside are acceptable? If this is so, how come in your considered opinion the Konny engine is not acceptable? I believe you are running a Konny crank in your engine or am I wrong?

My opinion is in light of my experience of the Classic Club. When I decided to build a Konig outfit to race with the Classic Club I contacted them and told them of my intention, and was told that they had no evidence of a Konig sidecar being raced within the eligible period. But if I could furnish them with genuine proof that there had been Konigs raced as sidecars in the period they would have no option other than to allow it.

After completing the machine I sent the proof they asked for, I quote the reply I received from the eligibility officer: "I agree that the Konig is indeed eligible as a true classic, but after speaking to other competitors about your bike they would not wish it to race with the Classic Club - the reason being you might come and win !"

I found this reply incredible - I always thought the point of racing was to win - in fact if you are only there for the ride and not bothered about winning you should not be out there at all.

After some discussion with the eligibility officer he granted a temporary eligibility certificate with the warning "We will see how it goes".

I took it from this that if I raced with them and did well the eligibility certificate would be withdrawn.

This is in complete contrast to the Scottish Classic Racing Club, who had no hesitation in accepting it when I sent the information regarding eligibility earlier this year, and indeed made me very welcome at their Classic Bob McIntyre meeting at East Fortune.

Indeed my opinion is not aired to cause your project to fail, in fact I wish you well with it, and as you know from Dick I have offered you any assistance I can help with. I would not wish anyone to have the same bad experience I had in trying to bring some variety into sidecar racing.

I now quote from the Classic Clubs rules on eligibility:-

ENGINE: The external appearance of all engine components must be maintained as per the original engine
manufacturer's specification, unless it can be conclusively shown that any external modifications made are
from within the relevant period. The internal specification of all engines is free from restriction, but the
machines must be entered in the correct capacity class and their actual capacity declared.

By the way, the crankshafts in my own Konig engines are Hoekle not Konny.

Looking forward to seeing you and Dave Cheesmond at the weekend. Best wishes, Howard.

This was the reason I abandoned any hope of racing my Konig and sold it to someone in Australia

[Bob B]

I'm sorry but part of your point is contradictory. If, as you state, the bike was acceptable to the Scottish club and you wanted to race why did you sell it - where to is irrelevant.

Clubs by very definition make and abide by their own rules. If you do not like their rules then do not go to them. In another world if you wanted to play, let's say rugby, why on earth would you go to a tennis club and expect to play? It's the same in our world of sidecars!

[RARING TO GO]

Lang, your caveat of "beware of exagerated power output claims," is offensive to Konny Motors and all the deveopment they have done over the past 25 years.

[tonybsa2008]

May I just piont out,YOU CAN RACE ANY KONIG IN THE FSRA CLASSIC SERIES.you can even use slicks if you wish,and if the power outputs quoted by KONNY are true it WILL be competitive.Dont forget that Vince Biggs managed to beat some of our regulars and ,score a brace of 4th places at Anglesey a few years ago on his front exit classic Butsch BMW,dont think you have to have a rear exit,fully slick shod outfit to be competitive in our class.

[RARING TO GO]

tony bsa, well that is the kindest post yet, watch out for us.

[ianw]

Michel, I agree with Howard's questioning over Konny's claimed power outputs for their engines.
Konny claim-
140BHP for the 500cc engine.
160BHP for the 700cc engine.

In Howards MCN article from 1968, Konnig are claiming a power output of 75BHP for their 500cc engine.
If Konny are to believed where their 500cc 140BHP engine is concered, that is just under a doubling of BHP!!!!!
In defence of Konny, yes, modern materials , oils, bearings ect have improved dramatically.
Especially Piston / Bore materials.ie, pistons having anti seize coatings & cylinders doing away with liners & going for Nicasil ceramic coated bores. I take it that the Konny engine IS running a Nicasil bore & not running liners????.
But, a near doubling of BHP is definetly unbelievable.
The only way that a BHP figure will be confirmed is that when a customer of Konny puts an engine on a proper Dyno, as Howard says & not a Dynojet dyno or the likes, but a proper Brake Dyno will their claims be confirmed.
Until then I think everyone who has an interest in the engines, whether it be for or against should stop quoting Konny's BHP , it is just scare mongering & doesn't help trying to get the engine eligible on a temporary basis or permanently.

[lang]

Michel, I agree with Howard's questioning over Konny's claimed power outputs for their engines.
Konny claim-
140BHP for the 500cc engine.
160BHP for the 700cc engine.

In Howards MCN article from 1968, Konnig are claiming a power output of 75BHP for their 500cc engine.
If Konny are to believed where their 500cc 140BHP engine is concered, that is just under a doubling of BHP!!!!!
In defence of Konny, yes, modern materials , oils, bearings ect have improved dramatically.
Especially Piston / Bore materials.ie, pistons having anti seize coatings & cylinders doing away with liners & going for Nicasil ceramic coated bores. I take it that the Konny engine IS running a Nicasil bore & not running liners????.
But, a near doubling of BHP is definetly unbelievable.
The only way that a BHP figure will be confirmed is that when a customer of Konny puts an engine on a proper Dyno, as Howard says & not a Dynojet dyno or the likes, but a proper Brake Dyno will their claims be confirmed.
Until then I think everyone who has an interest in the engines, whether it be for or against should stop quoting Konny's BHP , it is just scare mongering & doesn't help trying to get the engine eligible on a temporary basis or permanently.

Ian, I was very surprised to see when I looked at the new Konny engine that the bores are still on steel liners and not Nicasil plated.