EMRA

[ianw]

Which meeting did you do Andy?

[Big Tim]

We always used to do the first Emra meeting as it was early March. Now it seems to clash with other meetings. We can't be in two places at once!

Fair point - we did Mallory last year on the 15/03/15; then the two day Auto 66 at Cadwell the following weekend. This year, both events clashed; two days closer to home at (in our opinion) a better circuit will always be our preference, which is what we selected, despite supporting EMRA and Auto 66 equally for the last three years. (As you say - You can't be in two places at once ... unfortunately!)

[David Stewart]

The outfits are out there and bike racing is in the best place it has been for many years.

We (Thundersport GB) are at Donington Park this weekend and we have 374 entries - yes, that's right 374 entries. We had well over 300 at Brands Hatch a few weeks ago in some of the most miserable conditions I can remember.

If sidecar racing is struggling (which it is) there is something wrong with Sidecar Racing that isn't ailing the rest of bike racing.

You can blame the reliance on production based bikes if you like, but that isn't the reason. Real racing bikes - 2 strokes etc - make up a tiny fraction of the solos racing today, yet this hasn't adversely affected the entry levels.

Solo racers face the same scenarios of nobody using bikes as a primary means of transport anymore, yet our part of the sport is booming!

The problem (in my mind) is that mainstream organisers have turned their backs on sidecars because they are unreliable (entry wise, not mechanically - but you could add that into the mix if you wanted to), have huge chips on their shoulders (the whole world is against us), fail to stick together (even though they often claim to all be united under the FSRA banner), are slaves to the vagaries of the TT (as Alan Richardson says - don't go!) and think that the world owes them a guaranteed place - centre stage - at a discounted or free price.

I daresay most of you don't like that assessment, but it doesn't mean that it isn't 100% accurate.

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My crowd this weekend (over 3,000 people) won't see a sidecar, or get to talk to a sidecar person.

They won't see the teamwork aspect of bike racing that only sidecars have - on track.

They won't be able to wander into a sidecar racers awning and have a chat with some of the most interesting, entertaining and hospitable members of the world of bike racing.

They won't be able to be inspired by the innovational engineering solutions that sidecar builders have had to invent.

They won't do any of the above, because the sidecars aren't there! - I find that more than a little sad, because a lot of my friends are sidecar people.

You think that you've moved on to a better place.

You could say - pretend actually - that the sidecars have a much wider audience now that they are at BSB and that they get all of the above in a much more populated paddock.
SO WHY ARE THERE LESS PEOPLE RACING SIDECARS THAN THERE WERE IN 2009????

It's because those people milling around your awning aren't interested in anything that isn't a Superbike, they're just marking time until the next race.

Ask around the other support classes, they'll tell you the same thing.
16 KTMs??? Why?
2 125 GPs? Why?
18 Moriwakis? Why?

Because they're not Superbikes - and nor are you!

You are pandering to the wrong audience and it's going to kill off three-wheeled racing.

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Again, you won't like that assessment, but I think you'll find that if you look back on it in a couple of years it will be accurate.

20 years ago, every club that ran ACU Permitted events ran sidecars as part of their format.
BEMSEE
NEW ERA
North Gloucs
Retford
EMRA
North East MCC
Louth & Distict
Pegasus MCC
Derby Phoenix
Wirral 100
Crewe & Nantwich
KRC
Triumph Owners
CRMC
VMCC
Auto 66
A1 MCC
Marshals North West
Aberaman MCC
Port Talbot MCC
Aintree MCC
Tonfanau RR
Cheshire Centre
Newmarket Combine
Bantam Motor Cycle Club
Clubmans Racing
Melville Club
Kirkaldy Club
Astra MCC

The ones in bold still run sidecars most of the time. The rest don't.

The most successful organiser today - by numbers and public exposure (Thundersport GB)
& 3rd largest by numbers (No Limits Racing)
clubs currently organising events, don't cater for sidecars, because they aren't viable economically or promotionally.

Where do you think you are going to recruit the next generation of sidecar racers from?

If you look at the entry lists of the Clubmans events you have been discussing, you will see that over half of the entry lists are just testing or having a shakedown for something else, so where does that leave the clubs for the rest of the season?

The FSRA have a lot to answer for "It is unique in being the only body that represents a road race class to the sports governing bodies from club level to World Championship level, liaising with motorcycle road race clubs, often on behalf of the riders, and over this time has been instrumental in forming the rules and technical regulations for the latest sidecar classes." That is part of its mission statement.
I did the Daily Telegraph crossword today and the answer to 1 across was "Bullshit"

Sometimes I despair!

Too direct? - Moderate it then..................

[teamradar]

Which meeting did you do Andy?

NG at Brands.
Blew two engines

[G JONES]

The outfits are out there and bike racing is in the best place it has been for many years.
Too direct? - Moderate it then..................

Some very good points Dave - not much I'd disagree with myself - just curious if you have any thoughts on if / and / or the situation can be improved ?

[bruce moore]

As someone who has supported EMRA over the years , and someone that this year is having the opertunity to ride again after a 10 yr break , I think personally it's the sheer cost, I am racing in the pre injection champs this year , when I got the entry forms I shit breeze blocks , how can the average person race two weekends apart paying £275 per meeting just to enter !! , the cost factor alone must put people off , let's face it, mallorys been ruined since Edwinas was put in(my opinion ) I loved the place, but £170 entry just to get dizzy is madness
As for Dave, you've done wonders mate , pleased things are good , as for FSRA, they are trying damn hard to make things work, we have some off the best sidecar races in the world , just ashame people are allowed to see it

[David Stewart]

Hi Bruce, I totally get the cost issue for ordinary blokes on an ordinary wage, but that doesn't explain why solos (who are individuals rather than two people sharing the costs) are queuing out of the door ready to race and sidecars aren't. A modern GP1 or 600 Supersport is every bit as expensive to race as a sidecar - maybe even more so.
Some of my comments may seem harsh, but you know that is born of frustration because I really think sidecars make a race meeting better (and the people are generally great to have around).

My main point was:- Something is ailing sidecars that isn't related to racing in general. What is it?

That would probably be a good title for a whole new thread.

10 years ago there were more sidecars racing than there are today.

By contrast

10 years ago there were less solos racing than there are today.

Entry Fees and other costs DO NOT explain that difference.

Perhaps it is accessibility, promotion, networking, failure at World level or something else entirely.

Why do you never see Sidecars organisations (I don't want to unfairly single out the FSRA because others are capable) with their own stands at the NEC Motorcycle Show? Every sidecar I have ever seen there (and I haven't seen many) was piggy backing on someone elses stand and that means it's very hard to promote something in your own way.

The Val de Vienne training camp proves that Sidecar track days could be viable, so why has nobody organised one? That is a key feeder to solo racing.

[bruce moore]

Hi Dave , don't think your being harsh mate , just realistic , it's harder for sidecars as doesn't relate to any road vehicle , and sponsors are harder to find, I would love to see a stand st the bike show, our club just couldn't afford a stand ,
It's a shame FSRA can't get the help it deserves , after all it's the one of the only ACU British titles still on offer,
And some of the most spectacular racing , every round last was fantastic and very entertaining
Regards

[ianw]

Hi Bruce, one of the major problems, if not the main problem is the governance of the FSRA over sidecar racing.
All classes of sidecar racing that the FSRA govern are in trouble.
The classes that have no involvement with the FSRA are flourishing, The Classic Club & The Vintage Club are two, full grids with reserves, every race meeting.
Look at the variety of engines they have on their grids compared to FSRA organised grids, FSRA ,make your choice from one of 4 Japanese engines all because F2 under the FSRA governance was geared to the once a year TT races.
When the ACU / FSRA banned open class engines from the TT the writing was on the wall for the only engine option to be 4 cylnder 600s.This then dominated club & national racing in the UK.
OK, they let the 350s run at the TT for few more years before banning them also.
I'm no supporter of the sidecar scene in the 60's 70's & 80's because there were so many riders turning out "sheds", that majority got the sidecar fraternity such a bad name that it is still suffering to this day. That period did give us great diversity of chassis & engines though, which the Classic scene & the Continental scene have carried on with.
The biggest mistake that the FSRA & the ACU made was not to let the Ducati 900ss engine into the class, their argument was that the cost of racing would go through the roof which was a load of bo---cks. They could easilly have restricted the 900ss engine to being carburated instead of the initial ban on it being an injected engine. Bit ironic when you think about it, the only engine you can run in F2 now is injected.

[oldbelly]

Ian , obviously you have and always will have very strong opinions about The Formula Two / FSRA club, much like myself. However the advent of production based engined outfits has done nothing but good for the class. I started off with the old man on 16" wheeled bikes to the modern day. The bikes we all race today are the ultimate of development, in all classes. The days of make your own were fantastic but if you want to get stuck in and race rather than play about ,now is the time.

[ianw]

Sorry Geoff, got to disagree with you, development of the characteristics of the modern F2 chassis stopped in 1978, a modern F2 chassis wouldn't look to much different than a Windle that Jock Taylor raced back then, infact the "tin Windle"from 1978 looks more advanced.
F1, open development stopped when Rolf Biland retired.

[steve-e]

We're talking about getting racing going again and you want people to develop their own bikes? I don't see that being the future of getting people on the grid. Look at solos.. here DS can help us as he knows it inside out.. which classes work best? Production based but alter it a bit to make it racey (let's face it, sidecars will need a bit of altering like an extra wheel to begin with) , more tuned or out and out race prototypes? Even the TT Senior now has more superstock than it does real superbikes let along prototypes (most are just their superstock bikes with proper tyres and the ignition box changed - if that).
I don't see that filling grids Ian, no matter how great it would be to see.

Wish I'd found this thread earlier but I've had other 'offsite' issues to deal with