Oil Starvation

[Whites]

Hi,

I have blown 2 engines in 2 meetings in very similar circumstances so was looking for some advice on what I am doing wrong. I am running Suzuki GSXR 600 engines.

Engine #1

New casings purchased. Internals transferred from our old K7. Put an oil pressure gauge on the gallery, removed spark plugs, disconnected fuel pump and cranked it over on the starter. This was done for a while and the pressure would not build. Probably air locked. Eventually got oil pressure by towing the outfit with a car and putting it in gear. Engine started fine, however threw a leg out of bed after half a lap and all content rods discoloured.

Engine #2

Bought a K8 engine. It had some water inside so we decided to strip and rebuild. Same problems getting oil pressure. This time I disconnected the oil filter and cranked until oil came out, reconnected the filter and then we had oil pressure. Again, after one lap the crank seized. Con rods all blued. Luckily casings are intact so can probably rebuild with a fresh crank.

It seems like the galleries are getting air locked between the oil pump and filter. Is it possible to damage the shells while cranking the engine on the starter? I don't use engine assembly lube, just engine oil.

I don't want to build another engine for it to go boom again, that gets older pretty fast.

Thanks,
Whites

[teamradar]

I would look at your sump,baffle & pickup.
Poor sump design is the cause of most oiling issues and there are some horrors out there.

[lee eastell]

Check clearance between oil pick up and sump.

[Haynesy]

Same has happened to me numerous times and it was for the reasons above. Decent baffled sump fixed it on a few occasions and so did a dry sump on others - but that's a far more expensive option!

[Whites]

I am using a Tony Baker sump and baffles. The same baffles get swapped into the spare, which is still running. I'm not convinced it is a problem with the sump.

[Haynesy]

Good sump then.

Do you also swap the sump over as well as the baffles? I sure you do - but also check the pick up as well.

Sounds obvious - but a bike I was on blew 2 engines the same weekend because when we swapped engines over, we also swapped the baffled sump over - however we later noticed that the pickup on the first engine had small spacers on the end of it to keep it off the sump bottom where as the second engines pick up didn't have them on. However there was another sump we had with two blobs of weld in that did the same job of keeping the pick up from suckling itself to the sump.

In the hassle of changing the engines and swapping the annicilaries between them we some how got the wrong combination of pick up and sump and blew another engine.

When we got the right combination back together (either flat sump with spacers on pick up or spacers on sump and std pick up then never blew another engine).

Hope that helps.

[Whites]

We are swapping the sump. We only have one sump and pickup. So whenever we swap an engine we take the sump, main baffle plate and pickup.

It is not making much sense. The only thing I can think of is that it is damaging the rod bearings when we are cranking it over trying to get oil pressure. We are devising a way to prime the pump and galleries without cranking the engine over, see if it makes any difference.

[Haynesy]

Might the oil be foaming and frothing up?

[lang]

Always use a good quality engine assembly lubricant when building a motor, " do not rely on engine oil to assemble an engine" most damage is done on initial start up.
Never use cheap pattern oil filters, most of them do not have an anti drain valve incorporated ( that is why they are cheap).
Always prime the oil gallerys before turning over for the first time after a rebuild, and if new shell bearings have been fitted do not use a full synthetic oil until the motor is bedded in,a semi synthetic will allow initial bedding in to take place.
Finaly always thoroughly check the pressure release valve, making sure that it is seated correctly, and there is no dirt in it.

[the gobshite]

Are you running an oil cooler?

Could the oil cooler or pipes be restricted or have swarf from a previous blow up?

[Whites]

Not running an oil cooler.

I am using HiFlo oil filters. No idea if this is the cheap pattern type.

I have not yet needed to use any new shells, but I have some on the way. I will get some semi-synthetic oil. How do you know once they have been bedded in?

[lang]

A motor will be bedded in after approximately 20-30 miles of steady running. The full synthetic oils are in effect "too good" and do not allow the very mild friction of bedding in to take place. Fully synthetic oils are perfectly o.k. to run after this is done.

The filters with no anti-drain valve allow the oil to drain from them each time the engine is stopped, and when re-started, the filter has to refill before the oil circulates the engine. (Sorry have no information on HiFlo filters - if in doubt use genuine engine manufacturers standard filters, although they are probably more expensive, it is better than the cost of an engine rebuild).

Hope this helps.

[Eurocup]

Hi
use only Suzuki Filters. Fill them before assembling to the engine. We use 3.8 litres oil plus the ammount in the filled filter. rest is said so far.
bye Eckart

[Whites]

In both scenarios, the crank was turning with no oil pressure (Only with the starter on one occasion).

What I am trying to figure out if this was the reason why the big ends failed?

[Spud100]

Are you sure that you actually have enough oil in the engine. The team that I am associated with fill the engine so the sight glass just shows a bubble when the engine is warm and idling at 3000 revs.