The Place

Gordon, I think you will find it next to impossible to fit an engine with a standard airbox,exhaust & sump from a road bike into an outfit chassis. Once these are modded you need some means of altering the fuelling to suit & the sump should be logged to find surge/pressure problems.

There must be a way of getting a standard motor to run in an F2, the F1's seem to be doing it. Maybe they just have more power than necessary so it's not an issue with us (who am I kidding, we all stood there watching Si's f1 at Pembrey coming out of the hairpin last weekend going Woah that's cool, wish we could do that )

There must be a simple way to get these things to run in a go kart. ( hope sister jack sees that bit, it's not a slur I promise )

The FIM superstock regs are in drivel Andy, I looked them up earlier and didn't post them here, I can copy them here if that would help (i.e. you don't read drivel - the section not just this place in general ) but they run power commanders or kit ignitions with a cost restriction of 1.5x time the original-ish..
I'll find it and post again.

It's not a bash at motec, it's a bash at the cost of it. I think motec is great for an unrestricted class and would love to see one but in sidecar racing I just don't think it's viable or good for the sport. If someone brought out something else to make sidecars faster than everyone elses and it cost 3k could you afford it? If so, sell your motec

My Son Douglas Had a standard CBR600rr Engine when he first did the TT in 2007. The motor was fitted only with a power commander. He lapped at over 106mph, and won the newcomers award with Dipash Chauhan.

So what you're saying is it's not a daft idea Eddy?

steve-e wrote:So what you're saying is it's not a daft idea Eddy?

Look forward to hearing the answer to that
No offence meant here - but can't help but wonder if a lot of it is people thinking that because "X" has the latest gizmo - then it is necessary to be in with a chance....and once you are on the treadmill - you can't get off...
When we were racing against the top 350s years ago - I never did think I needed a better engine - I just needed (and still do) to learn how to use the one I had...

Gordon, I think you will find it next to impossible to fit an engine with a standard airbox,exhaust & sump from a road bike into an outfit chassis. Once these are modded you need some means of altering the fuelling to suit & the sump should be logged to find surge/pressure problems.

I don't doubt what you say - I just have to wonder if these engines are "too advanced" to be affordable for enough people to race them - and that is what we are talking about - getting enough bikes out to make a viable race class ?

The use of standard or tuned engines at the TT is not the reason for the lack of entries . The cost of doing the event is just too much in the present economic situation. A fortnight off work (minimum) the cost of getting there and the running costs of an outfit is now just too much in a lot of peoples eyes. As Ive said before I was ok in my time as start money helped towards costs and at least all the sidecar teams got enough to at least cover the ferry costs. As far as a level playing field goes, the race order would be no different if everyone was on standard engines.

For the TT you're maybe right Geoff, are there enough F2's around now that want to do it and would qualify if it was free?
Name them all
I tried this with F1s and was proved wrong this year, there were more than I could name as definite that turned up A good sign

[quote="steve-e"]
It's not a bash at motec, it's a bash at the cost of it. I think motec is great for an unrestricted class and would love to see one but in sidecar racing I just don't think it's viable or good for the sport. If someone brought out something else to make sidecars faster than everyone elses and it cost 3k could you afford it? If so, sell your motec
Steve,I don't run a Motec just a kit ECU but the development for my engine in my chassis was done with one by other riders.
I'm just trying to make the point that some form of adjustment/logging must be available to sort out reliability issues. This doesn't have to be Motec,there are other solutions,but restricting this could make things worse.A power commander is the least elegant way -3 boxes & attendant wiring instead of one.Also the solos don't have the oil surge/temperature/pressure problems associated with a cut down sump.
I'm just worried about a situation where I'm not ALLOWED to spend £3k on Motec but HAVE to spend it on standard motors.

Here's a thing.. to really spread it.. could you set your bike up with an expensive ECU on a dyno and then program your standard box with a power commander with the same map ? I guess the solos already do it, but nobody is much faster than anybody else.
That was a proper rhetorical Geoff Knight

The real thing to me is in F1 sidecars, nobody cares, they just race. In F2 power is so important. Just get more than you can use and see who wins ( wont be the fat ones )

No, Phil's not fat

I remember in the F1 post last year Yangi hitting on a point, that there's more to gain on getting a better handling bike than on tuning an engine, whatever power you've got is useless if you can't put it down. If your suspensions too hard/soft etc this can really affect thing's. What about brakes, with better suspension and brakes you can in theory get the power down earler and brake later.
Questions aimed at nobody.

How many people have spring rates assessed on there bike when they brought them, when was the last time you adjusted your suspension. Did you set up your bike a at Malllory test day at the beginning of the year and use those settings the rest of the year. When people have brought bike set up by someone else what have they changed. Rhetorical question, say I was to buy John Holden's bike at the last meeting of the season (take it away as it was raced, wish I could afford to ), which if I'm not mistaken is leading the champ and could potentially be the eventual winner. Now the engine set up etc would be perfect, so should I just get on an race it as it "must" be the best set up F2 in the country, or should I tune the chassis/suspension to my personal needs between teams there could be 4/5 stone diff in weight that can really affect things.

[quote="Karl"]I remember in the F1 post last year Yangi hitting on a point, that there's more to gain on getting a better handling bike than on tuning an engine, whatever power you've got is useless if you can't put it down. If your suspensions too hard/soft etc this can really affect thing's. What about brakes, with better suspension and brakes you can in theory get the power down earler and brake later.
Questions aimed at nobody.

Slightly off topic but Fiat Yamaha bikes are not the quickest in a straight line at most tracks. It is said that Jeremy Burgess looked at the time to be gained on the straights with a bit more power, then looked at the time to be gained round the corners of each particular track and plays with the power of the engine to suit. It seems to work for them. OK they have got more technology and cash to throw about but surely the princible is the same for any motorsport?

There are less F2s actually racing now than there were last year. There were less last year than the year before. There were less the year before, than the year before that. Get the picture?

Just look at the three big "Sidecar Friendly" clubs - Derby Phoenix, Bemsee and NGRRC. The active entry levels are down even though they may have just as many teams registered.

There are 2 Very Good National F2 Championships - Swan Combi & FSRA F2, yet there have not been enough F2s to produce any non-qualifiers yet and the small grid size at Cadwell Park flattered the numbers actually entered.

The numbers at the TT are drastically lower than 2-3 years ago.

This isn't because F2 Sidecars are less desireable than they were a year ago, it's purely because of the cost of competing in todays climate.

You can stick your fingers in your ears and shout "La la la, I can't hear you" as much as you like, but the problem will not go away until it is addressed. The solution will not be 100% of what any particular crew, past or present, would like in an ideal world, but a compromise that gives 90% of the people 90% of what they want usually works fairly well.

The teams with all the expensive kit and investment cannot be expected to wave goodbye to it overnight, especially if the 2nd hand market to sell it on is simultaneously wiped out (that would drive some very good teams away and would be unfair on them).

A compromise over a sensible timescale might include:-

1.Teams keeping their full electronics packages for 2011 being ballasted accordingly. (every AMRCO circuit has calibrated scales).
2. No one being allowed to tune by machining or adding kit parts to a 2011 onwards engine.
3. A claiming rule for certain named parts (ECU, Exhaust, Loom, Data Aquisition System).
4. An end target of standard motors (that's the big metal bit, not the ancilliaries) for everyone by the start of 2013.
5. A nominated date for standard ECU units to be used by everyone (This doesn't mean you can't reprogramme the standard unit).

Tough issues and you'll have dozens of different opinions, but somewhere in that mix there will be a consensus of opinion that everyone can sign up to and that will be your solution.

When I decided upon the new F1 rules, I wanted to have a meeting of all the "Active" teams one Wednesday evening here at Mallory Park as I believe face to face debate is healthy and gives the opportunity for a much more open understanding of each others problems.
At the time, the FSRA representation didn't want to do that and I ended up having to phone around a few people who's opinions I have come to trust and respect over the past 10-15 years. The rules that we now have work very well, largely due to the input of those people. The rules are NOT what I originally envisaged, I modified my outline plans after having listened to the people actually putting their hands in their pockets and their money on the table. I don't drive/passenger a sidecar and I don't see any reason to think I'd know better than those that did/do, so the advice was taken and implemented. What I do have, is a reputation for getting things done.

John Ward at Mallory Park would certainly offer the F2 Teams the use (free of charge) of the Hailwood Suite for just such a meeting, if that was what the majority of active F2 teams wanted. Or you might be quite happy for the FSRA to handle it themselves and take the proposals to the ACU for ratification.

None of my business really, but I'm more than willing to help if required. (I'll get me coat. As Bob says)

The sidecar TT in its present form is dying Lets be honest about it. Geoff Bell is correct to say the cost is prohibtive in these bad economic times, but racing at the TT is, and always will be expensive.

The problem with the F2 class is simply this. To go very fast, and stand a chance of doing well. a, You need ability, b, You need a big budget, and c, You need some clever technical people behind you. Fair enough if every team had this. But they dont.

Most teams who race sidecars do it for their love, and enthusiasm of the sport. It is these people who for years, and years have made up 75% of the grid at the TT.

But some of them decided not to go in 2008. More of them in 2009, and again this year. Why ?

I think it is because they are feeling demoralised by the speed of the top teams. Who make it harder for the slower teams to gain a bronze or silver rep.

The Mountain course licence is another well intentioned idea that was not thought out. Can anybody tell me why Geoff Knight was not allowed to race this year, just because he had'nt Qualified!!! by doing so many club races say around Elvington. It's a nonsense. How do our Continental friends cope?

Anyway for what its worth thats my opinion. We should be having 80 starters at the TT less than 50 is just not good enough, and all of you wanting supa dupa trick ignitions, and the fully tuned Engines must understand the TT is not about ten fast teams being supported by 35 and dwindling also rans.

IMHO,,,,,What TT sidecars need is a sympathetic factory like Honda to allow the use of used GP2 motors which can be monitored regards power output before and after use,,,,,,as in the Moto2 class where the chassis and how you use it to your advantage and is your weapon to gaining a result......Then as in Superstock rules the first 3 + a selected number of finishers will be checked by the Dyno Van for any iregularities......

Disscounted travel on the Boat from the Uk for a team of 5 per machine and a grand to qualify, should help the smaller teams at least start the first race knowing the guy in front hasn't got 12 grands worth of motor in his outfit rather than a standard one out of a trashed road bike bought from Black's Bike Shop on E-Bay.


These all may sound like great ideas for our evergreen racers who for me have always made up the TT paddock BUT we must also consider where the next generation of sidecar drivers and passengers are likey to come from......?

Just have a look around at your next meeting,,,,,eg Post TT on the Billown Circuit or Aintree this coming weekend and make a note of how many young lads or even ladies there are who might just fancy having a go at sidecar racing in the near future.......Not as many as there used to be.


You will also find loads of blokes of a similar age to you here reading this, most of them with grey hair, lots of them over the age of 45 and very few with any thoughts of having a go...or like me some one who has been there and done that......and would love to do it again......


Sad But true....


Regards


Fritz,,,,,,,