The Place

Right, first off a French licence issued by the FFM is required. Just waiting to find out if indeed the series will run in 2012.

There is of course always the Belgian option ...

Bill the borets one the british championship in 74 and the silverstone international in the same year on a Renwick Konig

Bob B wrote:Right, first off a French licence issued by the FFM is required. Just waiting to find out if indeed the series will run in 2012.

There is of course always the Belgian option ...

Thanks Bob. The Belgian option is already on the cards, just finding out all other options as any info is real handy.

Does anyone know of any classic sidecar series in Europe, i.e German, Dutch etc? and if so what the licence requirements are?

Dave Hutchens wrote:Bill the borets one the british championship in 74 and the silverstone international in the same year on a Renwick Konig

And you're point is, Dave?

Bill,post classic dates have been posted on the provisional dates link.
Unfortunanlty,once again,they all seem to be south of the m62 corridor.
Ive been trying to get them to come back to East Fortune(so you can watch us race),but apart from the F350 lads,there doesnt seem much interest in traveling north of Huddersfield.

Bill, I wasnt trying to make a point, just stating facts that prove these iconic machines (not just Renwicks) were not only pushing the envelope but were also competitive on ocassions.
I believe they should be preserved and run in competitions when at all possible so we can all see how ground breaking some of these machines were and how brave the teams were that competed on them.
The Renwick I am restoring will, I hope, race although not yet sure in what events. I might have to follow Bobs advice and compete in France.
I am hoping to entice Derrick Plummer to ride it. At least he has some Konig experence and wasn't too shabby in his day.

Dave Hutchens wrote:Bill, I wasnt trying to make a point, just stating facts that prove these iconic machines (not just Renwicks) were not only pushing the envelope but were also competitive on ocassions.
I believe they should be preserved and run in competitions when at all possible so we can all see how ground breaking some of these machines were and how brave the teams were that competed on them.
The Renwick I am restoring will, I hope, race although not yet sure in what events. I might have to follow Bobs advice and compete in France.
I am hoping to entice Derrick Plummer to ride it. At least he has some Konig experence and wasn't too shabby in his day.

Sorry Dave, I thought you were maybe indicating some kind of dominance at the time, but competitive on occasions is how I would describe them myself. They certainly had there moments but nothing that stopped the rest of the guys of the time racing against them. Brave the teams certainly were and pushing the envelope with the designs, not only John Renwick, but others like Tony Foale etc. My point is we should today be celebrating, these outfits, designers and crews by including them in our classic series of today. Thanks for sharing your photos with us.

Have been reading this thread with interest - thanks Steve!

The answer to the original question "where does your bike go if it's not eligible for the CRMC?" - join Tony at the FSRA. A lot of the rules appear to be the same e.g. if you have an original centre hub steering outfit you can ride with them just as you could ride with us; however neither club allow replicas of these innovative machines.

A point to pick up from Eddy - Hondas in the CRMC are restricted to 836cc and TR Suzuki's are not eligible.

I would agree with Bob B that it's good to see the Konigs running in Belgium, but our 2-stroke cut-off date is 1967 and the Konig motors, as developed by Kim Newcombe, didn't arrive on the scene until 1972-ish; so a bit out of date.

I agree it's good to see outfits still being built out of sheds; Dennis Etheridge builds his own outfits, as does Reg Charlesworth, as does Ian Salter, as does Jon Perkins, as does John Simper, as does Brian Gray and the two Daves (Crawford and Baxter). Mike Richards is building a lot of classic outfits, for a variety of different motors. I certainly wouldn't want to exclude anybody from the joys of sidecar racing just because they didn't have the technical ability to build their own outfit! There are plenty of Windles out there now, built by an excellent engineer for people who didn't have the necessary talent to build their own.

I have threatened for some time to have a meeting of chassis builders and classic enthusiasts to put some more specific rules on paper to assist chassis builders on what is acceptable for a CRMC classic replica machine, e.g. wheel size, brakes, suspension.

So, as somebody has already said - if it ain't broke don't fix it! And remember - next year is all balls anyway!

Ian
CRMC Sidecar Eligibility Officer first/Chairman second

To me personally, as they are would be later than the CRMC cut off, so are 'post classic', as in after the classic cut off date. I am fairly certain that the FSRA would love to have them in the post classic class, as it would help to build their class up and would be a real asset. They would be very appecriative of them being in there with them (I hope, not checked yet but can if anyone is concerned).
This is the chance the FSRA have to take over the reins of post classic and make it into that era between the CRMC era and what was originally called 'forgotten era' which is what the PC FSRA guys do now, it's a class that has a bigger gap really than the original 'forgotten era'.
I hope that the guys running the early TZ conventionals would appreciate the incoming machines into the class and build the FSRA class into something even better.
Just my thoughts, I think slowly.

Did I waffle there? What I meant was there seems to be a gap between CRMC classic and FSRA PC, which is where these bikes would naturally fall into.
still thinking slowly..

steve-e wrote:Did I waffle there? What I meant was there seems to be a gap between CRMC classic and FSRA PC, which is where these bikes would naturally fall into.
still thinking slowly..

Fine by me Steve, as long as these icons of our sidecar heritage have a place to race. I can understand your argument and that of Ian Johnson. Can we now have this agreed publish a set of regs that the owners of these machines can read and see that they are now welcome. It's no use publishing regs to FSRA club members they need to be available and known to be available to all interested parties to attract them out of hibernation.

You make it sound so simple Bill There's a lot of waffling to go on before that happens.

I mean of course 'purposeful discussions between committees and discussions and negotiations between the hosting clubs as to the viability of running the subsidised grid of sidecars by solos' .

OR, talk to the FSRA, specifically Stu Mellor and Dave Tibbles who control the Post Classic side of things, by telephone usually as neither are particulalrly highrollers on the web yet, but they ARE (that's not shouting, it's one word for emphasis) learning, Tibs himself posted an attachment on a post this week, and both are willing to take it on board and I am sure willing to discuss if it whould be helpful to build the class up. After that is it up to them. If they feel it doesn't fit their class it is up to them.
I am not in a position to pressure them, the same as the CRMC, it is up to the guys running their own formulas to decide their own rules. That was just the way I saw an opening for these machines to be ridden and enhance the already existing classes.

steve-e wrote:You make it sound so simple Bill There's a lot of waffling to go on before that happens.

I mean of course 'purposeful discussions between committees and discussions and negotiations between the hosting clubs as to the viability of running the subsidised grid of sidecars by solos' .

OR, talk to the FSRA, specifically Stu Mellor and Dave Tibbles who control the Post Classic side of things, by telephone usually as neither are particulalrly highrollers on the web yet, but they ARE (that's not shouting, it's one word for emphasis) learning, Tibs himself posted an attachment on a post this week, and both are willing to take it on board and I am sure willing to discuss if it whould be helpful to build the class up. After that is it up to them. If they feel it doesn't fit their class it is up to them.
I am not in a position to pressure them, the same as the CRMC, it is up to the guys running their own formulas to decide their own rules. That was just the way I saw an opening for these machines to be ridden and enhance the already existing classes.

Steve, with no disrespect to anyone I've done my time in committees at every level from local motorcycle clubs, other local clubs, Rotary, companies of which I have owned two, delegations to Arabia, Thailand, Hong Kong, Phillipines and from these experiences I know that right sometimes works, persuasive argument sometimes, lobbying sometimes, self interest sometimes and sometimes backhanders. This is hardly a complex issue if Stu and Dave have been following these posts, (though they will have difficulty as they are somehow now spread over the site like a rash). If not someone who knows either and supports my argument, please bring it to there notice, if not I certainly will but as I have no real vested interest, I would rather someone else did, I will take up the argument from there if required. If there is genuine heart felt support to celebrate some of our heroes of the past, this can be pushed thro' for 2012 without any difficulty. No way does it effect anything that is already in place other than putting an addendum in the regs that hub centre steered outfits with front positioned engines and two strokes engines up to 1000cc pre 197? are allowed. Now the pressure are on the guys who want to race.

Steve,thanks for appreciating what Im trying to do,which is to piont out to people that these machines,ARE eliigible to race in THIS country already,and would be most welcome into the FSRA post classic grid.I am one of the early conventional TZ riders you describe,and Id love to have them on the grid with us,we need outfits on the grid,not in sheds.
Unfortunantly the FSRA post classic series must be one of the best kept secrets in British racing today!And if you dont know who the FSRA are,youd never know our class existed,the number of people that came up to us at the festival of sidecars,and asked where we race ours was unbeleivable.

One thing I have found is that, if those who own Post Classic outifts put in as much effort getting them race ready, and on track with the FSRA where they can race instead of trying to change the Classic rules to suit they would save a lot of energy, time and money. Grids would be much better supported at FSRA meetings and the Classic grids will be left to resemble the Classic Period. The CRMC rules are clearly working and there is no need to change them to accommodate the Post Classic outfits which clearly have a place to race.