The Place

A Gentleman in Kent is building a sidecar with TWO Ariel Arrow Engines [two stroke]??

Two arrows. Two Ariels? I'm trying to find a punchline and struggling, come on Tim!

Another string to the CRMC bow????????????

I love this Place No points for that Ian, close but not quite. Also loving that we moderate slightly less than we used to and wait to see what happens, things will work themselves out most of the time, everyone here apart from me is an adult, works well

den etheridge wrote:A Gentleman in Kent is building a sidecar with TWO Ariel Arrow Engines [two stroke]??

Now that sounds interesting. Question is though will it be twice as good or double trouble

Question is though "will it be twice as good or double trouble?" The same goes for the Konny Konig, it is un proven and as they used to say "when the flag drops the BS stops." BTW the engine case was slavishly copied from a 500cc Konig square block by 3-D laser the heads unlike the original are CNC'd, I can send pics to any one just PM me your email address.

Same goes for the KONNY KONIG it is untried and deserves a chance.

That is a lovely piece of engineering. Having been the owner of 2 original Konnig engines, my opinion is that from "ten paces"
your average joe wouldn't know the difference between the two, especially with the carb & expansion chambers on.
A few things that would concern me, the cooling system, is it "total loss", ie, when the engine is in a boat, does the water pump draw cold water straight from the lake, circulate it then pump it straight back out again?
What gearbox will you use given the power output that is claimed?
Back to the eligibility issue, rules are formed & agreed upon to protect the class & the competitors.
They should not be changed just because someone comes along with an engine that wasn't raced in the period & argues that he wants to race it in the class. I had this problem with Forgotten Era regs, before TZ700/750 were allowed in the class ( after my time), Paul Hanson had his "Moonnraker" which was powered by a Barton Phoenix engine, we gave him special dispensation to race within the class as the bike was of "Special interest" The best was a guy who kept ringing me wanting to know why he couldn't build an outfit using a Moto X engine & race it with Forgotten Era. He couldn't accept that a 1990's Moto X 2 stroke engine wasn't raced up to the class cut off date, & we were pretty flexible!
Rules is rules.

Ian, I was quiet supprised when I saw the final product that I had paid to have remanufactured, I am willing for it to just sit in my lounge as an objet d'art. I also owned orginal Konig engines but they were limited in quality, performance and duability, this new machine hopefully will be all the things the Konig was not, I am not slagging Konig engines off they fit the bill in their day........for some at least.
The marine engine has no water pump at all the water is scavenged up by the propshaft and as you say it is total loss, it exits the engine at around 68 deg C. The "Bike" engine had a water pump but on investigation by KONNY it was a little under size for the job and a new improved one is being developed incase purists want to go that way. I think the Aussie electric pump will be better all told. Mick Hemmings told me that his gearbox will be okay run at high ratio to reduce torque on the box.

Engineering is superb Michel.
How are the heads sealed, I take it they've come up with a gasket arrangement, unlike the original Konigs?

ianw wrote:Engineering is superb Michel.
How are the heads sealed, I take it they've come up with a gasket arrangement, unlike the original Konigs?

Out with the ARALDITE in with "O" rings, on the case joint only a smear of RTV no glue required.

Shellack was used to seal the heads on my engines.

ianw wrote:Shellack was used to seal the heads on my engines.

Shellack takes me back..stop it.
BTW if anyone is interested KONNY are prepared to build a 350cc 2 pot engine suitable for a sidecar /bike (basically a 700cc cut in half) or if prefered make a 4 pot 350cc. Let me know

In reply to Ian's post:

With regard to contacting the Classic Club about my intention to build a Konig and your reply "This is wholly false", I can only assume that your memory is short or selective.

The contact was with you outside the scrutineering bay at Cadwell Park on the weekend of August 09/10 2008. There were two other people present who remember this well and have signed statements to this effect.

Perhaps you will let me know how the machine fails to meet C.R.M.C. rules.

With regard to your slur about "pure fantasy" and clippings from a 1966 motorcycle magazine. It was, as you well know, a full page article from MOTOR CYCLE NEWS in 1967, clearly showing the engine which is the same model as used in the machine I have built.

Your analogy about Honda engines is rather poor and certainly misleading.

The side on photograph is what is asked for on the eligibility form. How on earth you can say the wheels are too wide is beyond me, the rear rim being 7" and the front and sidecar rims 6". Page 20 of the C.R.M.C. eligibility rules clearly state that the maximum acceptable rim width is 7". In your defence, some of the pictures of the machine in construction shows it with "old slick tyres" fitted. I had no intention of fitting the new Avon A25 tyres I purchased until it was ready to race.

If I presented a machine for scrutineering which did not meet the rules of the club I would fully expect to be refused a ride.

As you have clearly changed your mind, I now quote from your correspondence to a colleague in January 2011:

So I'm at a loss as to what this eligibility problem is all about. Is it just a communication problem? Which neatly brings me on to the Konig. You write it is to be banned - by who? Certainly not me. The man showed me some paperwork proving the engine was run in the period so why would I ban it? The man also gave me some paperwork stating the specification of the chassis, wheels etc., OK this proved to be a complete pack of porkies! As proved by the lovely photos he proudly shows wherever possible. You are right, my knowledge is limited but even I know in 1967 they weren't running 10" wide wheels. So, if he would like to put the Konig in a proper classic chassis we would all be happy. It will cost him an extra £20 for another eligibility card - and a verbal apology for threatening legal action and a whisky and lemonade.

Ian your remark "A complete pack of porkies" is libellous.

Perhaps you should have more lemonade and less whisky if you think my outfit could take a 10" wide wheel or that I would be stupid enough to contemplate using one.

Please, if you are going to take advice from experts, make sure they are not going to lead YOU up the garden path.

The reason no attempt to enter a race meeting, or contact you, was due to a serious illness in the family.

With regard to threats of legal action, I have never threatened you with this, as you rightly say. In fact, after looking at all the paperwork and statements, my legal advisor suggested to me that my case would be very likely to succeed. But to my surprise he informed me the case in law would be against you and not the C.R.M.C.

I had not then, or indeed now, any desire to inflict financial ruin or you or possibly myself. The advice given was neither party should go to law unless they are prepared to risk losing all they own !

At the end of the day, all I wanted was an occasional ride on the machine I built - championships; points; trophies etc are no longer of any interest to me. I grew out of that many, many years ago.

I have found this whole exercise both tiresome and wearying, as I am sure you have, and I am now ready for a very large whisky without lemonade !

Howard Langham

Just a quick note , in case anyone is thinking where are the moderators - as I'm sure some might; the mods ARE watching this thread but there's nothing here that I see breaking any forum rules at the moment. Better to let things run than stop without all parties putting their views forward.


Liking the pics of that engine! Personally not sure how classic it is, but that's REALLY not my forte