Cyril Smith/Edgar Peacock Sidecar

[Katzen]

Steve: "Thanks Much" for posting the photos. Happy to see they made it to you. Hope
they didn't require "massaging"..

Tonybsa: "Thanks" for talking to Betty, and for Scarborough/Fath/Maty Bell stories (RH
downtube/swingarm mount of rear suspension subframe supplied by Mr. Ogle
is cracked/broken/had been repaired earlier so your suspicion about time/
reason for return to solid may be "spot on"). Hope Betty can view photos Steve
posted above, but if not, can forward to her email if supplied.

Photos 1, 2, 4 came from the seller when I purchased the bike. I have no idea
of the who/where/when in the action shots. Expect the #4 "garden" shot was
taken (by David Ogle?) about time he sold bike. Shots 3 and 5 were taken by
me in my driveway shortly after outfit was delivered back in????. It looks same
today.

Am at another location so cannot check at the moment, but seem to recall
comment in communication to friend in Leicester back in???? that it is NOT the
bike shown O'Dell's book (was that an earlier outfit?).

"oldbelly": "Thanks" for your post. Bike may very well be one you describe. I have NO
history or photos (except 2 posted above that were supplied by seller) of bike
after Cyril sold it to Edgar, so ANYTHING about it between that time and David
Ogle's sale is "news to me"...

Helen: GREAT REPLY!!!

KATZEN

[Katzen]

Tonybsa, Would be great to see any pics Betty might have of Edgar... Katzen

[tonybsa2008]

I will see Betty at the weekend,and show her your pics.You may have towait a while for pics from Betty,as it is her son who has the pics and he is in Portugal at the moment.I will do what I can,meanwhile I will speak to Edgars brother this weekend.

[tonybsa2008]

Spoke to Edgars brother,Richard,today.He was delighted to see the pictures.
He remembers that in the accident at Scarborough,Maty Bell,misjudged Mere hairpin,and went straight on,and ended up going through the teatent.
Apparently there WAS damage to the bike,as Edgar had to do a quick repair for the Southern 100 meeting in the Isle of Man,where he finnished 3rd.You may want to look this up.
The repair was done quickly,and apparently he did not spend as much time as he would of liked doing it.
Richard remembers that the bike was purchased for £700 off Cyril Smith,the cheque being passed through the fence at the point where he retired with a dropped valve in the 1959TT.
Also he remembers walking through the paddock at Siloth,where his brother was sponsoring a rider,and seeing his old bike.
Richard still has 3 back sprockets belonging to this bike,and would be happy to donate them to you,if you could cover postage?

[Wal]

Not really on topic, but. . . . . Reading through the posts in this thread, once again makes me realise what a fantastic site this is . . . .From long lost history to brand new 'friends'. . .Thank you Steve English . .

[Katzen]

Tonybsa: "Thanks" (again) for the Edgar, Maty, Richard stories. They help explain some of the "wounds/bandages" on the bike.
As for the sprockets, if they're alloy, I'd be interested (how pay Richard... Paypal?). If they're steel, probably not, as
expect postage cost might be as much as the bike .

Wal: "Amen to that!" "Thank You, Steve!"

[Edgar61]

Hi Don, this is Edgar peacocks son Michael , I have many photo's of my father and Cyril smiths norton, you are more than welcome to have a look if it helps, plus I would love to hear more about the outfit you can call me on 07801634670. Many thanks Mike.

[Katzen]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for your post! Great to "meet" another family member. Expect you have a few/many memories of your Dad's outfit.

If you've probably been following the discussion at all, you know I'm almost completely "in the dark" about it after Cyril sold it to your Dad. Actually, it was the posted list of Scottish sidecar champions that motivated my question, and another unrelated event that has "kickstarted" the restoration.

The outfit has been sitting for the last 35 (?) years so there isn't much to tell. As you can see from the posted photos, up until last week nothing had been done to, except to move it to a new location. Last week we actually started working on it, and so far the fairing has been stripped, the solid rear cut off, and fabrication of the sprung rear begun, using what photos I have, Eric Bliss's sketches, and the old bits that came with the bike. The fairing is going to need a LOT of work, as will the sidecar nose, but expect we can do. Am taking pics as it progresses and can forward to you if you're interested (can send to Steve but hate to bother him with something that's likely of interest to very few people..

Would love to hear your stories about your Dad and the outfit, but I'm a l-o-n-g ways away (mid USA), my cell phone connection is "iffy" at times, and being an "old fart", my hearing is dodgy at best. So, if possible, I'd prefer e-mail contact (deludewig@yahoo.com), if OK with you. But if all else fails, there's still old fashioned "snail mail"...

So please drop me a note, or post a reply here on The Place, and we'll take it from there (am on the road working on the bike/using the local library computer when available so responses may sometimes be slow, but I WILL get back to you!).

Many Thanks for your interest and offer to share stories..

Don

PS: Do you do any racing yourself?

[Edgar61]

Hi Don, I am trying to get the photo's copied so I can post them on the place. I hope all is going well with the bike, the photo of the bike number 3 is Edgar not Tom Jackson I have the same photo. Sorry to hear the bikes so far away as I would of loved to see it, America is a vast country, I go to siesta key Sarasota every may, are you hundreds of miles from Florida. All the best mike.

[Katzen]

Hi Michael, Thanks for message, and #3 photo ID. Am working with some photos for Tonybsa to (hopefully) resolve a final drive sprocket "conundrum" (doesn't align), and have some others of the bike revisions I should be able to send to you, shortly. "New" sprung rear frame has been tacked into place, and the petrol tank opened up to repair. Fairing stripping has been completed and "bumping out" about to start. It looks like someone was "late on a left hander"
(in Eric Bliss's words), as both the tank and the fairing appear to have gone down the road on something other than wheels. Am considering leaving some of the scars, and not painting the fairing and half the tank to "preserve" at least some of the history, and also because I'm never happy painting aluminum (won't polish it, just "smooth out" the hammer marks a bit). Will restore/paint the sidecar nose 'though, as it's fiberglass, and a bit "scruffy".

In answer to your question: I'm about 1500 north of Florida (Michigan), so don't get there very often - not as often as you, anyway ! Keep warm, Don

[Edgar61]

Hi Don, I can remember the bike having a few crashes when owned by my dad, I can remember seeing dad layed in bed with not a lot of skin left on his leg, for some reason he decided to go in the chair that day with a guy called Bill Hocking in charge. The bike had its biggest smash at Oliver's mount which Richard has told you about, dad lent the outfit to Matty bell who went straight on at mere hairpin through the fence and smashed his leg which later due to complications had to be amputated. All the best mike.

[oldbelly]

From what my old man told me . Matty went off the road well before Mere Hairpin . The outfit took off ( the paddock is much lower than the road ) and actualy landed on Ralph Humbles tent. His family were luckily not around at the time. Dad was a solo racer at the time as was Ralph. Dad changed to sidecars at the end of the following season. The hospital had apparently left a dressing in the wound, resulting in Matty loosing his leg. Hence Ray Bell starting racing with help from Matty. Those Bells are no relation to us lot .

[lang]

You are right Geoff, the accident started at the start/ finish line, as you will remember that section was much faster (and exciting) than it is now.
The bike did indeed land on top of a tent, a drop of about 4 mtrs, very lucky not to have been many more injurys considering how confined the paddock was in those days.

[Katzen]

Edgar61/Michael, tonybsa,

About to get back into the project . First job is to (try) to sort the gearbox drive/wheel sprocket (mis) alignment
problem. Am hoping that fitting chain will present a better picture of the situation/maybe indicate a solution.

On a another matter, can anyone tell me if there was (surely?)/where the passenger grab handle (to hold themselves down on the rear wheel in righthanders) was located on the RH side of the bike? Have been unable to make anything out in the 2-3 photos I've seen of this side, and the broken rear (SA) subframe I got with the bike shows no evidence of ever
having anything like a "handhold" attached to it. There may be some indication under the paint (have not stripped this area) of the solid rear "downtube" (which appears to be the same for both solid and SA rears), but I would have thought this to be a bit too far forward. The rear handhold shown in the many photos of the 1958 solid rear frame is on the section removed for the SA rear subframe. Any pics, or approximate measurements of the right side SA rear subframe area would really be helpful.

Expect you're all busy with holiday prep, so if I don't hear from you before then, "MERRY CHRISTMAS, HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Don

[sidecarpeter]

I knew Bill Hocking ( one time business partner of Edgar Peacock) in his latter years and visited him at his home in Skeeby several times. I mention this as he recounted to me the time he went down to Cyril's house in Birmingham to collect the 1958/1959 outfit. He was amazed at the front door opening straight onto the street! He said he paid in the region of £600 for it including a spare engine and gearbox. Needle rollers were used in the otherwise standard gearboxes. Both engines were works 90 bore. He fitted the spare in a solo manx and raced it, see picture of '121'. Bill said the sidecar weighed 35 lbs. Edgar raced it after the 1959 TT for the remainder of the season with Bill at the helm for the earlier part of 1960. 'Circumstances' with their joint owned motor cycle business in Darlington meant that the outfit had to be sold. Bill told me of the fun he had had with it and wished he had took up sidecars years before.
The picture of the outfit no.154 is of Bill at the helm in 1960. All of this info came from Bill - I just took notes when he recounted it all on 10 July 2004.
The picture with Cyril shows his wife (I think). Stan D will know for sure.
Although a little late maybe, the picture of '154' might give some hints at hand holds, but probably not of swinging arm construction etc.
I will sent the pics via the email address as I am better at handling outfits than laptops, just !