The Place

OK Ecart,

Show me the ACU rule that says all sidecars must have "Foot behind the knee" because I can't find it. I can't find it, because it isn't there.

Dave

Hi Dave

http://www.idm.de/dokumente/Technical_R ... 060212.pdf
watch Pos. 18
This is the IDM regulation, which came from the FIM regulations.
Bye Eckart
we should wach foreward to the f600 projects in germany (long bike with 600cc engines)
this will be more for the future than sitter or zwitter.

ACU rule 19.4 states that the handlebars on an F1 ,no mention of "open."must be no more than 500mm behind front wheel spindle. and not lower than said spindle.
So if you can get a human feet forward in that space then its legall. As long as head and torso are visible from above.

we should wach foreward to the f600 projects in germany (long bike with 600cc engines)
this will be more for the future than sitter or zwitter.[/quote]

Why would you try and ruin the F1 class by doing this? You dont want any change to sidecar chassis as it doesn't fit the mould you think it should have but are happy to put 600's in a long bike and change what F1 is!
Every form of motorsport evolves but sidecars still look the same as they did 30 years ago apart from the new look bodywork.

It's not changing a class. I don't think any of this thread so far has been about changing any classes. Just change the bikes so more people can ride them.

In Germoiny let them put 600's in, still not F1, the F2 TT class won't change, not a problem.
Sitters in the UK, not against ACU regs as our Reverend Brother David states, not a problem.

It's not where "I've built a new bike and need a new class" , most of the new class stuff comes from paranoia of being beaten.

tweety wrote:ACU rule 19.4 states that the handlebars on an F1 ,no mention of "open."must be no more than 500mm behind front wheel spindle. and not lower than said spindle.
So if you can get a human feet forward in that space then its legall. As long as head and torso are visible from above.

How can you reach handlebars 19" behind the front wheel whilst in a sitting position in a long bike with transverse suspension arms, limiting how far forward your feet can go. If your torso has to be visible from above then you have to recline till your almost horizontal(this is a badly written rule being miss-interpreted deliberately by Tweety, it should say and intends that your back is visible from above). I have taken what Tweety said as coming from the same rule book that Dave is reading from and that covers it...no feet forward...!! Tweety also knows that handle bars are open, there is no room for miss-interpretation on that as he is suggesting....!!

I'm going back to hiding in the garage...........

There is now no mention of an open class for sidecars in 2012 ACU regs.
i.e. up to 1000cc only.
Unless you run to B1 B2 or B3 rules?
But yes I was poking fun at the rulemakers.
Although if you bent ones legs and sat upright it might be possible.
Saftey in a frontal impact would have to be considered.
Many lower limb injuries are seen in space frame car single seater cars.

FIM / IDM rules are irrelevant in this context.

ACU B1 & B2 regulations cover all sidecars and the sitter shown in the first photograph is 100% legal. I'm not advocating using one, it's just a straightforward technical question and it is legal. The body being visible from above complies because the cockpit opening goes forward to the level of the knees.

The Mogvin and the other red thing where the passenger sits next to the driver comply with these rules too and are also C3 cyclecar compliant (as are Morgans). Again, I'm not advocating them for any particular races but an assumtion that there is a blanket ban on feet forward riding postions in all sidecars is false. In the absence of specific Standing Regulations for "Open Sidecars" they automatically fall under B1 / B2 regulations whether you like it or not.

oldbelly wrote:

Aye, laugh Geoff...!!

Thats a smile BIll. Because Dave has his finger on the pulse more than most.

Just a question - if a a club is running an open sidecar class would a category B &/or C be permissible?

Depends on the Supplementary Regulations & Championship Conditions Bob. If you don't specify any particular restrictions in either of those, then any B1, B2 or C3 cyclecar would in theory be eligible. You'd be on a sticky wicket with oddball stuff like Scooter Sidecars because they have a separate sub-category for 8 & 10 inch wheeled versions.

The last set of Open Sidecar regulations I wrote some years ago were for B1 & B2 cyclecars between 349 - 1290cc with a minimum rim size of 12 inches and modern oil containment (at the time). I did that because I wanted to include pretty much all modern sidecars without having an unreasonable disparity of theoretical lap times and closing speeds.