Auto 66 Cadwell 27th Oct SHORT CIRCUIT ?

[David Stewart]

The Chicane isn't used on the Club Circuit.

The Woodlands Circuit has another separate licence number ACU069.

I do understand your frustration and I was merely pointing out the situation the club finds itself in. A bit of communication directly withthe club might answer all the relevant questions though.

As for Entry Fees, the Auto 66 ones are probably the ONLY commercially realistic ones out there.

As clubs we always tend to work out a budget.
Then trim it as much as we can.
Then work out how much an entry fee needs to be to cover those costs.....(get scared, because nobody will want to pay that amount)

Go away and have a cup of coffee.

Come back and totally disregard the costs.

Then set an entry fee that will never in a million years pay the bills. Odd behaviour, isn't it?

[Eddy Wright]

Dave with regards to all the problems with the nimbys at and around Mallory. Would it be a good idea to have the Festival at Cadwell next year.

[David Stewart]

"Dave with regards to all the problems with the nimbys at and around Mallory. Would it be a good idea to have the Festival at Cadwell next year." - Eddy Wright

I don't think it really matters where you have the Festival, it's about the sidecars more than the venue. It doesn't belong to anyone per-se, it sort of just happens. Originally it was a joint event between the Retford Club and the Overend Family at Mallory Park. Then it was run by EMRA on behalf of Mallory Park, until the circuit decided that it didn't want to take 100% of the losses on its own. As far as I'm aware, EMRA (being the actual East Midlands Centre of the ACU) were not allowed to commit to running an event at a pre-determined loss, so it stopped happening for a couple of years altogether.

Then, when I started running the Eastern Airways F1 Championship in 2010 it got Syd interested in sidecars for the first time and I convinced him that us taking on the Festival would be a good idea. I then put a proposal to John Ward at Mallory Park that guaranteed that the circuit would not suffer more than £2,500 in losses and that Thundersport GB would share any losses equally with the circuit. So the contract now limits losses to £5,000 between the two parties and we were both quite happy with that up until this year. The Saturday 'problem' has made it far less attractive to the circuit, as getting an event on an extra Saturday was always what made it worthwhile to them, so I'll have to sit down with John after this years event and see what he wants to do (if anything) for future seasons.

For Thundersport GB it is our only contact with sidecars and if we looked at it in a purely commercial light, we'd probably run a mile from it. My own personal reason for wanting to do it, even at a loss, is because of the Tony Chilcott Trophy. So I guess I'll probably end up accepting a new deal from Mallory Park for next year that limits their losses to a smaller amount and probably increases ours (if Syd is still willing). Gordon has already pointed out earlier in the thread that a £120 entry fee is unrealistically low for a sidecar event, but it has to be priced at an attractive level for the teams as well - as it comes at the end of an expensive season for most of them. If you price it at £145 (as it should be) you end up with more teams just watching than actually competing and it then dies out, as it did once before.

You'll probably struggle to get an MSV venue (like Cadwell Park) to agree to share the risk though, as the Festival always will make a loss. JP isn't in the habit of discounting anything and if he has a spare day available he just runs an MSVR race meeting or a Track-Day Trophy event. Having said all that, I have no strong view either way on where to run it, but you'd probably find it difficult to get any venue interested in taking a financial flyer on it.

Dave

[bruce moore]

just shows you what a crock of shite the TT points system is
the woodland circuit used to be ok,to small for modern machinery,the old club circuit without the chicane is a good circuit,

[G JONES]

As for Entry Fees, the Auto 66 ones are probably the ONLY commercially realistic ones out there.
Then set an entry fee that will never in a million years pay the bills. Odd behaviour, isn't it?
Gordon has already pointed out earlier in the thread that a £120 entry fee is unrealistically low for a sidecar event, but it has to be priced at an attractive level for the teams as well

Dave - you paint a very worrying picture of the viability of running any Sidecar events at all.
While I don't doubt your figures - I really can't see how any organization can continue to "plan" on losing money....eventually the available funds run out - for most people anyway...
I'm also curious to know if this lack of viability is unique to the Sidecar class ?
I obviously don't know the details on how the figures add up - or fail to add up - I do know that entry fees are a big part of what we have to spend during a race season - and I guess that's the same for a lot of people...
If that's the case - then I would also guess there are a few "ex" racers out there - and we will never see their return to "active" racer if the entry fees are increasing.
So what's the answer ? - looks like there will be no sidecar racing for anyone before long - "organizers" / "promoters" can't keep on losing money - a lot of the competitors can't keep finding more money - we've seen it already over the recent past - dwindling grids everywhere - from club level to the TT....

[David Stewart]

It's true of all classes (the rose tinted glasses budget thinking) but it's more so with sidecars.

Sidecar grid capacity is generally two-thirds of solos, so in order to obtain the correct income from each grid respectively - so that no one grid is always subsidising another - a sidecar entry should really be at least enough to ensure that a full grid of sidecars nets the same income as a full grid of solos.

Days entry fee by circuit:-

Mallory Park £120 x 32 solo grid slots = £3,840
Mallory Park £3,840 divided by 24 sidecars should be = £160 each (but is usually £130)

Donington Park £130 x 40 solo grid slots = £5,200
Donington Park £5,200 divided by 30 sidecars should be = £174 each (but is usually £135)

It's pretty much the same everywhere.

That's without adding in the extra trophies (as there's two of you) and the extra insurance for your passengers.

It doesn't make any logical sense, but it's always been like that.

[kew]

Gordon, you only have to look at the number of sidecars on a grid compared to the number of solos. Any club would run an extra grid of solos if they were just looking at the monetary side of things.
We are lucky that some clubs continued to run sidecars through the dark days when sometimes there were only 2 or 3 sidecars in a race and solo grids were over subscribed.
I'm the secretary of a small club that runs hill climbs and we have lost money this year so entries will have to be increased for next year, will that make the situation worse by having less entries? Time will tell.

[anp]

It seems very reasonable to me if you take a passenger around with you

[G JONES]

I'm the secretary of a small club that runs hill climbs and we have lost money this year so entries will have to be increased for next year, will that make the situation worse by having less entries? Time will tell.

I quite understand what you are saying keith (and Dave) - books have to be balanced - by organizers or entrants - funds are in short supply for most people these days - sometimes it's that "small increase" that proves to be the "straw" - you know what I mean... - and looking at the grids at some of the club's meetings we have been the "invited" class this year (and last year for that matter) - there have often been only 3 or 4 other club bikes on the grid.

[SlowPhil]

That’s all well and good but the few true spectators that don’t have someone racing that day all say that they enjoy watching the sidecars more than anything else! And remember that the gate money goes to the circuit not the club

[G JONES]

We seem to be going off topic here a bit - the original question about whether a club should "move the goalposts" in changing the circuit being used on that date - at least one post has suggested that the club would need to scrap the original 2 day permit for that weekend - and create 2 new separate meetings under separate permits - with a new set of regs for each day - that hasn't happened as yet - so where does that leave us ? - can the circuit stated on the original weekend permit be substituted with a different one ?

The other part of the thread is raising some more worrying issues - whether organizers / promoters actually want sidecars at all - and whether there are enough people able / wiling to find the funds to race sidecars.
At most club meetings we have been at this year - there have been low grid numbers - A66 meetings a maximum of 4 or 5 F2 bikes - N.Glos meetings - usually about 10 bikes (open + F2) - whether the level of the entry fees has any effect ? - but I would guess that as fees go up - entries go down - ok - you always have people leaving the sport - as well as people joining - whether there are more "joiners" than "leavers" is what needs thinking about...

That’s all well and good but the few true spectators that don’t have someone racing that day all say that they enjoy watching the sidecars more than anything else! And remember that the gate money goes to the circuit not the club

If the figures don't add up - it doesn't really matter what the spectators want / enjoy - (at least at club level) - it's not really "financially" viable - we only survive because there are a few enthusiastic promoters...

[anp]

They wont want sidecars if you everyone keeps moaning about things that dont really matter if you have signed up for a series you may well have a contract for a certain length of race what track layout its would not bother me

Its all been said & done before stating the obvious

[kew]

They wont want sidecars if you everyone keeps moaning about things that dont really matter if you have signed up for a series you may well have a contract for a certain length of race what track layout its would not bother me

Its all been said & done before stating the obvious

As you say Paul, try not to upset people or we may have no racing at all.

As regards the permits,
If you run a 2 day meeting on the same track it can be run on 1 permit and 1 set of regs.
If you run on 2 tracks then it has to be 2 permits and 2 sets of regs.
Be carefull again as that would mean 2 lots of insurance.

I think our problem at the moment is that we have too many meetings for the number of sidecar competitors that can afford to race. If clubs stop running sidecars they wont start running them again.

Never mind you can all enter my hill climbs take a look at PTMCRC.co.uk

[tonybsa2008]

There are some other factors affecting grid numbers at the moment,the price of diesel is now getting to the stage where the traveling to and from a meeting is becoming more costly than the entry fees,and this has been a factor in deciding where we have raced this year,we decided to stop doing one day meetings because its too expensive to travel for 2 races,and a practice.

Also,people are feeling the "pinch"and dont have the amount of cash in their pockets they had a few years ago,consequently those still racing are being more selective about which meetings they attend.

[InkyAnn]

The other part of the thread is raising some more worrying issues - whether organizers / promoters actually want sidecars at all - and whether there are enough people able / wiling to find the funds to race sidecars.
At most club meetings we have been at this year - there have been low grid numbers - A66 meetings a maximum of 4 or 5 F2 bikes - N.Glos meetings - usually about 10 bikes (open + F2) - whether the level of the entry fees has any effect ? - but I would guess that as fees go up - entries go down - ok - you always have people leaving the sport - as well as people joining - whether there are more "joiners" than "leavers" is what needs thinking about...

The free entries for club racers at Bemsee has meant bumper grids all year - to the extent that it was possible some outfits would not qualify (although I don't think that actually happened). Whilst this has been brilliant for Bemsee, it has been to the detriment of other clubs, I have no doubt. However, you also have to consider how other clubs structure their days: with North Glos you only get one attempt at a signature during the day, since the first race is a 'qualifier'. To my mind that's less attractive than an organiser offering two bites of the cherry.

Anne