The Place

totally agree john no big bmw's before 73 mine included and no dry sump's and as for howard's cheap yamaha think he's in cloud cookoo land !!

dick tapken wrote:totally agree john no big bmw's before 73 mine included and no dry sump's and as for howard's cheap yamaha think he's in cloud cookoo land !!

I don't think Howard is in cloud cuckoo land Dick, I may be wrong but I have a feeling is tongue was firmly in his cheek when he wrote that post . Mind you when you have got as much money as he has stashed under his bed what's the odd £30K here and there

sidecarracing wrote:there we are, "replicate pre 1972, which is the class at the moment"...
...who provides the evidence of 1000cc (and more) Beemers in the period?...no one...because there never were any!
I think one will be hard pressed to find any BMW which had more than 750cc pre 31-12-1972 (that's the official cut off date as far as I know).

John please don't forget that we run to the rules and regs of pre 1972 and that includes the upper capacity limit of 1300cc and although there may not have been various makes with capacities which are used now, It cost's only a small difference between building a 750 BMW and a big un, so it is not the financial burden which a lot of peeps think. We had the freedom in period with capacity which allowed Vinny's some of which were made bigger and were possibly the quickest things around and were expensive, but nobody moaned. And that freedom of choice we had then is still part of it. There is one person who has been moaning about cost' and BMW's but is currently having a P&M 750 triple built, financially similar to a BM, but this will be beneficial as his old engines although quick were being stretched to the limit and suffered some failures. I think he will help to make things closer in our class.

666 You say we are running to pre 72 regs and upper capacity limits, that may well be true but pre 72 there were NO 1200 BMs and NO 1200 Plus Imps
they only exist now because its possible to do it,so do we have period racing or what people consider as the logical progression,if so then the logical progression of Classic sidecars is F2/F1

petercaughlin wrote:666 You say we are running to pre 72 regs and upper capacity limits, that may well be true but pre 72 there were NO 1200 BMs and NO 1200 Plus Imps
they only exist now because its possible to do it,so do we have period racing or what people consider as the logical progression,if so then the logical progression of Classic sidecars is F2/F1

Peter, It was as possible then as it is now, it's only simple engineering it aint difficult. Possibly the real reason is we have a little more time on our hands and a mortgage which is paid freeing up a little more cash. In period we had lots of other issues such as chasing females, marriage,children and socialising all of which takes up time that could have been dedicated to engine development. In period I have made pistons and gear oil pumps for my Triumph's,but with all of the other things I have mentioned didn't pursue any further dev. We are all competitive people and always try try to improve, this is something the human animal has done forever and will continue to so.

With the better oils nowadays I dare say a TZ will last a bit longer. In my day a 750/700 would last 450 to 500 miles between crank rebuilds. I only raced a 350 twice , at the TT and Southern in 1990 and couldnt get 300 miles out of a crank on those. I cant remember how often we changed pistons / rings but it was less than that. That was being raced though.

The CMRC lost the plot with the rules a few years ago thats why I stopped sponsoring the class.A few people behind closed doors making the rules just like the formula 2 lot did. I agree there should be no massive BM and Imps even though there in my chassis. The rules state the silouette of the engine should remain the same, so how can an inch spacer under the head make the engine look the same ? Carbon fibre bodywork, special fuel, floating brakes how is this all "Classic" ?

I think the classic racing is brilliant went to angelsey and watched a weekend of it, I was chatting to a guy from Belgium with his BMW and the other Bmw guys frightened me with the costs they said they were spending,but what a great weekend great racing and really good set of people in the paddock everybody was enjoying themselves. I think I was trying to say before about a class that should be run with all controls In place and I do think it would be a good class basically everybody on exactly the same bike,sorry if I deviated from this discussion. I also did not think our TZ 750 was expensive to run once you understood it as long as you checked and measured tolerances regularly

It's great to read some proper racing talk.

Paul,having raced a TZ for the last 10 years I agree once you understand it,they are not as expensive as people think(unless you use secondhand bits).
Goeff we get 800 miles between engine rebuilds,providing we dont cock anything up.
We have better ignition than was available in period(with a lifetime garuntee),but we still run Castrol 747,would not use anything else in an OLD 2 stroke.
Even with siezures we still get 800 miles between crank rebuilds,and some solos can do a 1000.Our bores are good for 1600 miles(again providing we dont cock up),as we use Fahrons nicosil liners.
Screw them together correctly in the first place and they are no bother.
If the classic club got control of there eligiblity,I would run my 750 Commando in thier meetings(if I ever finnish the damn thing),as it is,it will probably run in the VMCC like my previous BSAs did,because I,for one,do not wish to race a BMW,just to be competitive.

mrequipe wrote:The CMRC lost the plot with the rules a few years ago thats why I stopped sponsoring the class.A few people behind closed doors making the rules just like the formula 2 lot did. I agree there should be no massive BM and Imps even though there in my chassis. The rules state the silouette of the engine should remain the same, so how can an inch spacer under the head make the engine look the same ? Carbon fibre bodywork, special fuel, floating brakes how is this all "Classic" ?

Mike, The first big Imp was out there before you were sponsoring the class, you are I think correct about the silhouette rule but another issue is ambiguous as it has been said that if it looks right at 10' its OK and I think that unless your'e looking for it you probably wouldn't notice it ?? So I think both of these statements are contradictory. What would you suggest should the top capacity limit ? so far we have1000,1040,1070, I think the next is 1170 with another currently being built which is reputed to be in excess of 1225cc. Mike I have not seen anybody with floating disc's, nor carbon fibre bodywork perhaps you could let us or me know who, the fuel we use is 102 octane non oxygenated which is both FIM and ACU approved although the club have raised the limit, We use proper race fuel as the quality controls are tighter and more consistent.

Hi Tony yes we used Fahron liners but we used a chrome ring on a cast iron liner Hoeckle cranks and Yam pistons no bother what so ever silkolene oils 40/1 went like a rocket and reliable too. I often fancy putting one together again and riding in your class cheers

Use only engines that were available before 1972 and only allow over boring no stroking.
The BMW engines being used now were not available then. The R75/5 I think is the engine that was available.
The biggest Imp I can remember back in those days was 998cc.

Absolutely correct, Imps were in the main 875, I believe the Sunbeam Stilletto was 990 and its impossible to get a 750 BM engine out to 1200

oldbelly wrote:The Classic Club ( sidecar ) seem to be very much like the FSRA ( Formula Two Club ). In as much as however good their origional intentions were , have let things slip to the point where things have become crazily expensive. At least in the classic situation there seem to be plenty of older riders with lots of cash.

Correct sir