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Re: Konny and Konig engines
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:01 am
by den etheridge
Eddy Wright, Answer Yes and NO,Special dispensation was offered if I remember, and at the time the tyres were [ARE] THE Problem. TREAD contact with Tarmac 150mm? Twenty years ago when I was in Belgium with Triple Triumph we were in front of the Konigs??
Re: Konny and Konig engines
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:10 am
by lang
den etheridge wrote:Mr Langham, Your Sidecar was ineligible because of the Wheels and TYRE Width, not the Engine. I Remember the Photos You had on this Site many months ago.
Mr Etheridge, if you read my post 11-12-12, you will see that what you say is incorrect, but I am at delighted that you have recognised that the Konig motor is eligible . You and others have nothing to fear from this or indeed any other machine competing, any machine irregularity would mean refusal by the scrutineers, and race organisers have complete control over machines by being able to refuse an entry without having to give a reason why.
Re: Konny and Konig engines
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:25 am
by Simon Smith
I have just read the newspaper article. It says that the engine had done a few laps but not finished a race.
Does that qualify for 'normally raced in Europe during the period' (taken from the rules). I guess the important word here is 'normally'. How do you guys read it?
BTW, thanks to all for an interesting debate that hasn't spiralled into a mud slinging match.
Re: Konny and Konig engines
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:46 pm
by RARING TO GO
SS One of the difficulties in knowing what was raced in Europe at the time (1966 ish) is getting accurate facts from Europe, the UK is easy as everyone seems to have an opinion on when and where machines were raced. Not allowing the Konigs is the easiest and least controversial way to go IMHO.
Re: Konny and Konig engines
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:04 pm
by Norvin racing
steve-e wrote:CRMC doesn't need any more bikes on the grid, why would they change the rules to what is a class that fills grids and that the people who ARE racing with the club enjoy?
Wouldn't make much sense to me.
I see the point of the eligibility officer's job being the thankless task of getting the grids fairly evenly set within their periods and making the decision himself, with advice where taken but with a mind to the possibility of spec creep, already hearing talk of letting TZ's anywhere near the CRMC sidecar grid? I was so dismayed at Silverstone couple of years ago going to CRMC and seeing TZ solos there.
I can't understand how classic rules ever need to change much, if they were or weren't eligible in 1980 then the same bikes should or shouldn't be now? History hasn't changed just some peoples' rose tinted perception of it.
Oh dear what have i done! i have just bought a outfit to race with a couple of clubs the main one being CRMC i am a newbie with no experience if the CRMC don't want anymore bikes on the grid does that mean it will be difficult for me to get a entry? can someone explain how do they decide who's in and who's on the reserve list, is it first to enter,most points,most regular or on a eligible basis or something else? I don't want to join a club only to find i cant race or always in the reserves.
Sorry to go of topic here but as it was brought up i thought it was the best place for it.
Cheers Ged
Re: Konny and Konig engines
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:20 pm
by den etheridge
The Weslake ENGINE was another to prove when first available. 1968 the Rickman brothers had an 8valve conversion made by Weslake. Due to the increase in BHP made the bottom end [Triumph] unreliable and the Lad in the drawing office designed new crankcases crank rods [project WRP148].Ron Valentine did not design these. Yours Truly machined the Cases on would you believe a Capstone Lathe, special Jig made in our Toolroom [Ashford Gauge and Tool Co.,]. Bill Currie was the first to have complete Engine and then Many were used in Kent for Sidecar grass track racing.
Re: Konny and Konig engines
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:34 pm
by lang
Simon Smith wrote:I have just read the newspaper article. It says that the engine had done a few laps but not finished a race.
Does that qualify for 'normally raced in Europe during the period' (taken from the rules). I guess the important word here is 'normally'. How do you guys read it?
BTW, thanks to all for an interesting debate that hasn't spiralled into a mud slinging match.
Simon there is no mention in the article about the machine having only done a few laps, it does say that it had been leading SEVERAL German national races.
I would think that the word "normally" is understood by most people, for any who are unsure about it, the English dictionary explanation is very clear.
Re: Konny and Konig engines
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:50 pm
by ianw
den etheridge wrote:The Weslake ENGINE was another to prove when first available. 1968 the Rickman brothers had an 8valve conversion made by Weslake. Due to the increase in BHP made the bottom end [Triumph] unreliable and the Lad in the drawing office designed new crankcases crank rods [project WRP148].Ron Valentine did not design these. Yours Truly machined the Cases on would you believe a Capstone Lathe, special Jig made in our Toolroom [Ashford Gauge and Tool Co.,]. Bill Currie was the first to have complete Engine and then Many were used in Kent for Sidecar grass track racing.
Got to disagree with you about the Triumph bottom end being unreliable Dennis.
Gary Bryan Of RGB Weslake fame has only ever used Triumph cases on his engines, & his best engine is putting out just over the 100 BHP mark.
Sorry to go off topic.
Re: Konny and Konig engines
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:59 pm
by lang
den etheridge wrote:The Weslake ENGINE was another to prove when first available. 1968 the Rickman brothers had an 8valve conversion made by Weslake. Due to the increase in BHP made the bottom end [Triumph] unreliable and the Lad in the drawing office designed new crankcases crank rods [project WRP148].Ron Valentine did not design these. Yours Truly machined the Cases on would you believe a Capstone Lathe, special Jig made in our Toolroom [Ashford Gauge and Tool Co.,]. Bill Currie was the first to have complete Engine and then Many were used in Kent for Sidecar grass track racing.
I was not going to mention this while the debate about the Konig is ongoing, but I was the first person to have a Weslake sidecar outfit accepted as eligible by the C.R.M.C.
I had almost as much trouble then as I am having now, eventually, after many weeks and letters (no internet in those days), the eligibility officer (I think his name was "Gant") accepted it. I don't think anyone would question the Weslakes eligibility now. I eventually sold the machine to Ray Reeves, who I think went on to win the C.R.M.C. Championship on it.
Re: Konny and Konig engines
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:51 pm
by den etheridge
His name was Chris Chant [Vincent Man],
Re: Konny and Konig engines
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:51 pm
by tonybsa2008
Howard,out of curiousity,the Weslake you sold Ray Reeves,was it the green Windrick/Windle he had with a 16" front wheel?It was a nice looking bike.
Dennis,nice work on the Capstan lathe!I can appreciate the skill involved there.
Re: Konny and Konig engines
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:19 pm
by oldbelly
The first full Weslakes were raced in 72/73 then many were converted to 850s for the following season Mal White was one who converted to 850 for the 74 season. We picked our 850 motor up I think mid 74 season . Bill Currie actualy handed the motor over , the other bloke at Weslakes on that occassion was Paul Fricker ? They said our motor was the first full 850 motor , ie not a converted 750. Dont know if this was true or not. They also said it was producing 90 BHP, the horses must have had broken legs, a very basic engine that vibrated terribly. Even with the so called balance factor kit.
It was no better than a good A65.
Re: Konny and Konig engines
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:47 pm
by bruce moore
i cant believe this tread !!!!!!all this bickering,theres got to be a happy medium,i can understand the concept of the club,but,theres an awful lot of machines,25 yrs + that need races,cant understand the anti 2 stroke saga,im sure people would love to see early front exit 2 strokes,i would.
looking fwd to the day when theres a grid of Trev Iresons,Jock Taylors ex machines,alongsde Bilands,Websters machines,they are all classics by right,totally agree with period machines, but you shouldnt pick and choose,if they qualify then they should get a chance.
think you should take note of what Norvin racing has said,
Re: Konny and Konig engines
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:55 pm
by Bob B
As a polite aside most machines 25+ years should be eligible for VMCC with their own eligibility ctiteria.
Re: Konny and Konig engines
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:07 pm
by Simon Smith
lang wrote:Simon Smith wrote:I have just read the newspaper article. It says that the engine had done a few laps but not finished a race.
Does that qualify for 'normally raced in Europe during the period' (taken from the rules). I guess the important word here is 'normally'. How do you guys read it?
BTW, thanks to all for an interesting debate that hasn't spiralled into a mud slinging match.
Simon there is no mention in the article about the machine having only done a few laps, it does say that it had been leading SEVERAL German national races.
I would think that the word "normally" is understood by most people, for any who are unsure about it, the English dictionary explanation is very clear.
Hmm. Oxford definition 'the state of being usual, typical, or expected'. Was it usual, typical or expected? Howard, having re-read my post it may have come across more negatively than I meant. I should have said it had done a few laps at several meetings but not finished.