The Place

Hi All,

I am having trouble tracing the very first kneeler outfits to race. I know in the TT it was when they returned in the 50's but when did the swap over actually happen and what was the first?

In my delving into the past I found multiple claims to being the first. Found pictures of one in Germany and it was the good old BMW's but it is such an interesting stage and my search is like the missing link.....

Sorry if its an easy answer, my head is full of stuff I am getting old and thats my excuse.....

Thanks for all your help people

Certainly pre 1962 as CV and others were on kneelers that year, possibly no earlier than '59 - just from a rapidly faltering memory Suspect that the first TT kneeler was probably a BMW if that is any use

the first kneeler to be built was by Edward Ted Young but not sure of exact date at moment. I think him and all of his brothers are unavailable to give me this info as they have all died

Yes I think the ETY was the first although I think Cyril Malem might also make a claim

Ted Young around 1958/9 on a kneeler I certainly remember, that would have been an ETY Triumph, precursor to his ETY Vincent.

Was it not Eric Oliver.

I have a series of pictures of Watsonian outfits that show a steady progression through from 1950 to 1955 of where the outfits were getting lower and lower by the design of the frame. In 1956 I have some photos that show the full faring coming into being but it still looks like the drivers legs are not in the kneeling position. But in later photo taken in 1960 there is the cut back faring and the full knealer outfit.

It is like finding the missing link and it would be great to find out who it was and where they gott the inspiration to make that change that totally altered the whole course of sidecar racing as we know it. I know it was probably the old addage that design matches the need, and that need was to go faster, and you can see them in the series of photo's trying to get there, but that little step to say 'how about if we kneel down?'. Can you imagine... the bulbs going off thinking why the heck haven't we thought of this before.... it must have been amazing......

It is a design that has stood the test of time for over 50 years and not much changed in the style. Ok there was the introduction of the worm chassis but it still didn't get away from the knealer, although Louis Christian did experiment with the racing car style 'legs up front'.

A really intesting time in the sidecar history, and one that is rarely thought of.....

Thanks guys for all the suggestions it is really appreciated

Deffo ETY but not quite sure of dates yet,I have been told that Cliff Young is still with us,was Teds passenger,i will drop in and see if he can give a date when Ted built his kneeler the next time i go to north London

Eric Oliver definatley raced a fully streamlined kneeler in 1953. Im looking at a picture of Eric and Stan on it in Mick Walkers new book.

I reckon it was Eric Oliver who was first with a kneeler, as well.

"By 1953 the BMW influence was creating even greater challenges for the British riders. With its Boxer engine, delivering turbine-like power and shaft drive the ‘Rennsport’ was ideally suited to sidecar racing and would eventually dominate that category for a further decade and beyond. Nevertheless, Eric Oliver gained his fourth World Championship in 1953. At that stage the single-cylinder Norton had reached the peak of its development, but the forward thinking Oliver enhanced its performance with the creation of the ‘Kneeler’ layout; the styling of which continues to this day."

SOURCE - http://murray-mcleod.suite101.com/eric- ... tro-a87317

I knew you boys would know. But, and it is a very small but, I wonder why the others didn't really follow suit until the sitere 50's and early 60's. I thought Mr Dibben may have had a punt at this one lol as there are pics of him still on the sitters in 1953 at a world championship round. Think that was a Watsonian as well..... but maybe wrong about that....

Off topic a bit but Norton had a solo kneeler in 1953

Hi Dave, just a thought, there is one person not a million miles from you in one Dave Molly, who has a surprising in depth knowledge of the history of sidecars, I’m sure he would be worth asking if you haven’t already.

In respect of the “light bulb moment” you refer to when making the jump from sitters to kneelers, did the ‘croucher’ as used by Max Deubel fit in somewhere in the transition ?

Jim Mann and I bought the ex Ted Young ETY triumph in 1964
and raced it in 1965 after which we sold it to Dick Maplethorp

It was reputed to be the first kneeler,and this was confirmed by Ted's
brother in the paddock at Brands Hatch.

It had telescopic forks on which the tyre used to howl against on right handers,
so Jim used to grease the inside of the forks to stop the noise

Dick Hawes

I also found a picture of a guy called Owen. E Greenwood who had what they called an 'ultra-low' Triumph outfit in 1958, he rode that year with a guy called T Fairborther. After checking my data base I found that his passneger the year before that was someone called E. Quilibrium, that was his only ever year racing and finished 13th. Wonder where that passenger is now?