The Place

The following posts have been taken from the Emra thread in the Timekeepers section here:- viewtopic.php?f=66&t=55968

I just thought I'd pop a few of the posts over here as Steve E commented that it was hard to find as it wasn't where he expected.
Hands up, a couple of my comments are harsh, perhaps too harsh but I have left them unedited as I hate it when anyone else does that thing where they go back and modify what they said at a later date.

--------------------------------------------------------- Dave Stewart wrote:-

The outfits are out there and bike racing is in the best place it has been for many years.

We (Thundersport GB) are at Donington Park this weekend and we have 374 entries - yes, that's right 374 entries. We had well over 300 at Brands Hatch a few weeks ago in some of the most miserable conditions I can remember.

If sidecar racing is struggling (which it is) there is something wrong with Sidecar Racing that isn't ailing the rest of bike racing.

You can blame the reliance on production based bikes if you like, but that isn't the reason. Real racing bikes - 2 strokes etc - make up a tiny fraction of the solos racing today, yet this hasn't adversely affected the entry levels.

Solo racers face the same scenarios of nobody using bikes as a primary means of transport anymore, yet our part of the sport is booming!

The problem (in my mind) is that mainstream organisers have turned their backs on sidecars because they are unreliable (entry wise, not mechanically - but you could add that into the mix if you wanted to), have huge chips on their shoulders (the whole world is against us), fail to stick together (even though they often claim to all be united under the FSRA banner), are slaves to the vagaries of the TT (as Alan Richardson says - don't go!) and think that the world owes them a guaranteed place - centre stage - at a discounted or free price.

I daresay most of you don't like that assessment, but it doesn't mean that it isn't 100% accurate.

-------------------------------------------

My crowd this weekend (over 3,000 people) won't see a sidecar, or get to talk to a sidecar person.

They won't see the teamwork aspect of bike racing that only sidecars have - on track.

They won't be able to wander into a sidecar racers awning and have a chat with some of the most interesting, entertaining and hospitable members of the world of bike racing.

They won't be able to be inspired by the innovational engineering solutions that sidecar builders have had to invent.

They won't do any of the above, because the sidecars aren't there! - I find that more than a little sad, because a lot of my friends are sidecar people.

You think that you've moved on to a better place.

You could say - pretend actually - that the sidecars have a much wider audience now that they are at BSB and that they get all of the above in a much more populated paddock.
SO WHY ARE THERE LESS PEOPLE RACING SIDECARS THAN THERE WERE IN 2009????

It's because those people milling around your awning aren't interested in anything that isn't a Superbike, they're just marking time until the next race.

Ask around the other support classes, they'll tell you the same thing.
16 KTMs??? Why?
2 125 GPs? Why?
18 Moriwakis? Why?

Because they're not Superbikes - and nor are you!

You are pandering to the wrong audience and it's going to kill off three-wheeled racing.

-------------------------

Again, you won't like that assessment, but I think you'll find that if you look back on it in a couple of years it will be accurate.

20 years ago, every club that ran ACU Permitted events ran sidecars as part of their format.
BEMSEE
NEW ERA
North Gloucs
Retford
EMRA
North East MCC
Louth & Distict
Pegasus MCC
Derby Phoenix
Wirral 100
Crewe & Nantwich
KRC
Triumph Owners
CRMC
VMCC
Auto 66
A1 MCC
Marshals North West
Aberaman MCC
Port Talbot MCC
Aintree MCC
Tonfanau RR
Cheshire Centre
Newmarket Combine
Bantam Motor Cycle Club
Clubmans Racing
Melville Club
Kirkaldy Club
Astra MCC

The ones in bold still run sidecars most of the time. The rest don't.

The most successful organiser today - by numbers and public exposure (Thundersport GB)
& 3rd largest by numbers (No Limits Racing)
clubs currently organising events, don't cater for sidecars, because they aren't viable economically or promotionally.

Where do you think you are going to recruit the next generation of sidecar racers from?

If you look at the entry lists of the Clubmans events you have been discussing, you will see that over half of the entry lists are just testing or having a shakedown for something else, so where does that leave the clubs for the rest of the season?

The FSRA have a lot to answer for "It is unique in being the only body that represents a road race class to the sports governing bodies from club level to World Championship level, liaising with motorcycle road race clubs, often on behalf of the riders, and over this time has been instrumental in forming the rules and technical regulations for the latest sidecar classes." That is part of its mission statement.
I did the Daily Telegraph crossword today and the answer to 1 across was "bullcarp"

Sometimes I despair!

Too direct? - Moderate it then..................

--------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Moore replied:-

As someone who has supported EMRA over the years , and someone that this year is having the opertunity to ride again after a 10 yr break , I think personally it's the sheer cost, I am racing in the pre injection champs this year , when I got the entry forms I sh*t breeze blocks , how can the average person race two weekends apart paying £275 per meeting just to enter !! , the cost factor alone must put people off , let's face it, mallorys been ruined since Edwinas was put in(my opinion ) I loved the place, but £170 entry just to get dizzy is madness
As for Dave, you've done wonders mate , pleased things are good , as for FSRA, they are trying damn hard to make things work, we have some off the best sidecar races in the world , just ashame people are allowed to see it

-------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Stewart replied:-

Hi Bruce, I totally get the cost issue for ordinary blokes on an ordinary wage, but that doesn't explain why solos (who are individuals rather than two people sharing the costs) are queuing out of the door ready to race and sidecars aren't. A modern GP1 or 600 Supersport is every bit as expensive to race as a sidecar - maybe even more so.
Some of my comments may seem harsh, but you know that is born of frustration because I really think sidecars make a race meeting better (and the people are generally great to have around).

My main point was:- Something is ailing sidecars that isn't related to racing in general. What is it?

That would probably be a good title for a whole new thread.

10 years ago there were more sidecars racing than there are today.

By contrast

10 years ago there were less solos racing than there are today.

Entry Fees and other costs DO NOT explain that difference.

Perhaps it is accessibility, promotion, networking, failure at World level or something else entirely.

Why do you never see Sidecars organisations (I don't want to unfairly single out the FSRA because others are capable) with their own stands at the NEC Motorcycle Show? Every sidecar I have ever seen there (and I haven't seen many) was piggy backing on someone elses stand and that means it's very hard to promote something in your own way.

The Val de Vienne training camp proves that Sidecar track days could be viable, so why has nobody organised one? That is a key feeder to solo racing.

--------------------------------------------------------------- Steve English replied:-

We're talking about getting racing going again and you want people to develop their own bikes? I don't see that being the future of getting people on the grid. Look at solos.. here DS can help us as he knows it inside out.. which classes work best? Production based but alter it a bit to make it racey (let's face it, sidecars will need a bit of altering like an extra wheel to begin with) , more tuned or out and out race prototypes? Even the TT Senior now has more superstock than it does real superbikes let along prototypes (most are just their superstock bikes with proper tyres and the ignition box changed - if that).
I don't see that filling grids Ian, no matter how great it would be to see.

Wish I'd found this thread earlier but I've had other 'offsite' issues to deal with


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, there it is. There are other posts in there too, but it exceeded my word count allowance to copy them all over.

The question that popped out though - by accident - is the title of this topic.
Apologies if some of my comments were indeed too harsh, but I'd had two pints when I wrote the first bit and being a Southern Shandy Drinker it may have affected my decorum a bit.

David Stewart wrote: The problem (in my mind) is that mainstream organisers have turned their backs on sidecars because they are unreliable (entry wise, not mechanically - but you could add that into the mix if you wanted to), have huge chips on their shoulders (the whole world is against us), fail to stick together (even though they often claim to all be united under the FSRA banner), are slaves to the vagaries of the TT (as Alan Richardson says - don't go!) and think that the world owes them a guaranteed place - centre stage - at a discounted or free price.

I daresay most of you don't like that assessment, but it doesn't mean that it isn't 100% accurate.

I think that is an accurate assesment (cept for the TT bit) of Sidecar racing down here

Intersesting article.I fear the answer isnt simple.

I think I'm to "blame" for starting this in the Timekeepers section, I went off topic.
I was questioning why sidecar grids are so poorly supported, with the exception of the Classic Club races.
I gave my own opinion on why I thought it was but it seems as usual I have ruffled some feathers.
Referring back to the Classic Club races, their grids are full, every race, every meeting, their cut off date for eligibility is 1972, 44 years ago!!
I can only put it down to variety of machinery & engines within the class, it certainly isn't down to development or innovation as development stopped for the Classic Club in 1972.
Again, look at the sidecar scene on the continent, they are getting something right.
As Dave has said, "Something is ailing Sidecars that isn't related to racing in general. What is it?" I have my own views on what it is.
Credit to Dave for a straight forward & enlightening post.

What is the average age on the classic grid?? This will show you if it's the variety off machinery or just the old alliance still going strong?? I don't actually know the answer to this so will be glad to find out.
The way I see it, is that it is just much harder to get into sidecar racing. I'm sure most solo racers started off school boy scrambling or if not riding s bike on the road first

Dead simple . In our case , as with many . Lack of cash.

A lack of sidecar builders?

And a lack of cheap/beginner sidecar outfits?

Twenty years ago there were 6 or 8 makers of tubulars and at least 3 that made monocoque chassis'

Now 93.7%* of the grid are on LCRs

Secondhand LCR's are on average £13-£17k

Obviously they are more for newer but even 80's LCRs with R1,s and K4's Can be £8kish



* I made that statistic up obviously

20 years ago, every club that ran ACU Permitted events ran sidecars as part of their format.
BEMSEE
NEW ERA
North Gloucs
Retford
EMRA
North East MCC
Louth & Distict
Pegasus MCC
Derby Phoenix
Wirral 100
Crewe & Nantwich
KRC
Triumph Owners
CRMC
VMCC
Auto 66
A1 MCC
Marshals North West
Aberaman MCC
Port Talbot MCC
Aintree MCC
Tonfanau RR
Cheshire Centre
Newmarket Combine
Bantam Motor Cycle Club
Clubmans Racing
Melville Club
Kirkaldy Club
Astra MCC

20 years ago the people that were racing probably knew what a road going sidecar looked like!!! i.e born in the 50's n 60's, racing in the 70's, 80's 90's. young enough to have been around when road going sidecars were still used.

Im in my 30's and the only reason i know what a sidecar is, is through my old man racing. if sidecars were still used as every day transport by a decent number of people i reckon there would be a lot more people racing them!

If people stopped using motorbikes on the road right now, would people still be racing them in 20-30 years time??

Most people that race solo's have ridden bikes before hand either off road or on road. Either that or as kids they ridden/raced motorcross and progressed from there. very few people suddenly go from never having ridden a bike to going racing!

Well no one is gonna race sidecars because they've ridden em on the road before as they dont really exsist anymore, and no one is ever gonna ride a sidecar as a kid because their are no classes for them to race in.

and even when someone does become inspired to go race a sidecar, its not exactly easy to give it a go and see if you like it without a fair bit of commitment, apart from the odd taxi ride here and there if you fancy being a passenger.

Not saying this is the answer to you question Dave but thought id throw it in the ring for consideration.

Doh, Michael, chassis are related to racing in general

I know but....

Maybe JH racing should build 30 tubular chassis of identical construction

Hey, it's the modern era, too many people stuck in the 80's and 90's.
It doesn't matter what your involved with these days, if you don't "organise, promote and sell" it's not gonna happen.
The classic club do it without money, rkb f1 do it with money.
You all know why.

the gobshite wrote:A lack of sidecar builders?

And a lack of cheap/beginner sidecar outfits?

Twenty years ago there were 6 or 8 makers of tubulars and at least 3 that made monocoque chassis'

Now 93.7%* of the grid are on LCRs

Secondhand LCR's are on average £13-£17k

Obviously they are more for newer but even 80's LCRs with R1,s and K4's Can be £8kish



* I made that statistic up obviously

I've always thought that could be a contributing factor, if you want to go bike racing it's dead easy to walk into a shop and ride out on a bike, bits are easy to find and can be bought off the shelf or ebay etc

Sidecars not so much

One issue is the dwindling supply of reliable passengers coming through. In the paddock all i used to hear was 'i want to be a passenger'. Not many can do it, let alone do it at a good level. If you can find one that can be relied on to turn up, not overindulge in the liquid entertainment, possibly contribute financially, know one end of a spanner from the other and be up to the job, you might have unearthed a gem. In 2010, my last season, i did a costing of doing Bemsee meetings. I was running at £700 to £800 per meeting. Including Friday practice and running the bike properly. Thats not includind food/drink by the way. It's a great sport and i hope it picks up. I'm proud to be able to say.......been there, done that.

The price of a new bike is too high and not many have been built in the last five years

Some good answers there, but I fear we haven't found the one that is key.

Geoff - Lack of cash isn't the thing that singles out sidecars, as that is a generic problem that affects all classes.

Mike - A lack of sidecar builders is surely a result of a lack of demand isn't it?

Martin - You would be surprised at how many solo riders have never ridden on the road, or in off-road competition. The point about not seeing any sidecars on the road is one I hadn't thought about though.

Warwick - The availability of off the shelf sidecars has always been an issue, but perhaps your point is linked to Mikes.

Alan - Reliable passengers being a problem is something I hadn't considered. Is that a new problem?

Phil - If the price of a new bike is too high, where are all the second hand ones? If new bikes are too expensive surely second hand ones should be in high demand, but it doesn't look like it from the sales/wanted section on here.

Is it head on the block time yet? - OK, I think it is the lack of an entry level sidecar class. Something that can be built quickly, cheaply and simply by the home builder. Kind of like a Meccano set that someone has created in a factory that you buy your own readily available car wheels for and source your own cheap motorcycle engine for with an attractive looking bodykit that goes over the whole lot. F2 isn't that class as it is almost as expensive as F1 now.

A few years ago I costed this out and I really wanted to use it to get all ages into sidecar racing, but everyone I spoke to was so negative that I simply shelved it and moved on. I can't find the original drawings that Spencer and I created, but the basic spec is below just from memory.

Tubular spaceframe of similar size to F350 chassis made from box, round and oval tube sections.
Hub centre front end taken from Ford Fiesta 1998-2004 model.
15 inch wheels from Ford Fiesta 1998 - 2004 models complete with hubs and discs.
195/55 R 15 tyres (road legal treaded only)
Engine cradle to take Suzuki SV650 engine from both injected and carburated models.
Fibreglass bodywork and wheel arch kit.

Fit and source your own hydraulics, engine, handlebar kits and bling.

My thought was that it would be cheap (less than £1750).
Allow people to get involved with the build so that they understood their outfit.
Use non-race specific tyres so that they are cheap and readily available (not subject to "race tax" like all other niche products).
Not be too powerful or intimidating and allow racers as young as 15 to compete.

I guess all of that is quite easy to criticise or pick holes in, because it is very simplistic and probably doesn't appeal to the people already racing more powerful or sophisticated outfits. I know that some of you might ridicule something so low tech, because sidecars have now become fairly complex.
Just look at the Thundersport 500 class though if you want to see just how appealing cheap, simplistic racing can be (167 registered riders in that class alone this season). A lot of them are ex-racers who gave up because they simply couldn't afford to race in the more glamorous classes and the racing itself is terrific.
Most of those riders will get the bug and feed into my other championships over a period of time.