Poll: Standard engines at TT?

[Bob B]

Well what do you think?

[gatekeeper]

but only at the tt

[teamradar]

Only at the TT? as I have said that is not cost efective.

[steve-e]

Not only at the TT I would say, that would mean having 4 engines at least, 2 standard and 2 not, better to put the class back on track and get more newcomers into the sport on something they can afford to buy.

[oldbelly]

Racing isnt about standard engines . Not at the TT or anywhere else.Thats in either class of sidecar racing.

[steve-e]

Racing is about going as near to the top speed your machine will go no matter what it is and competing with people on similar machinery in my humble opinion. I don't want to get beaten by a mechanic, I admire the better racer by being beaten by a better racer (regularly )

If you want to do that tuning stuff just put them on the dyno and race there (but what do I know Geoff I'm just here cos I've nowhere better to go )

[Eurocup]

Hi
the difference to a tuned engine is small. it saves really costs. I run 3 years with 2 engines and sold them this winter( still running very good). If you keep the engine close it works. If you think to play with it, pay for it.
In Germany the standart engine rule works, why not at the TT.
Bye Eckart

[David Stewart]

The problem isn't as straightforward as "Standard or Non-Standard" engines and there is no completely painless answer for those who have invested heavily in both kit and development.
First, you need to clearly define what you mean by "Standard" and I would suggest on a sidecar engine you mean everything from the sump gasket upwards (excluding the gear linkage mods that are normal.
There is no point in insisting on completely standard ignitions, as that is something you cannot 100% police. It is a fact that the cleverest cheats are always one step ahead of the cleverest scruts (we generally only ever find out about a new illicit modification that pushes the envelope, when half the grid already has it).
In my Aprilia Superteen class I have addressed this by having a "Claiming Rule" which says that if anyone wants to put down the appropriate protest paperwork and £500 in cash, they can buy the complete datalogging system from any other bike in Parc Ferme. We only wanted people to buy and use the Mychron4 system, which retails at £400, so the claiming fee was set at £500.

Refusal to sell means automatic disqualification, but the claim can only be made after the final race of the weekend.

You just need to decide what the reasonable amount is that you want teams to be able to spend on electronics and then add 20% to give you the "Claiming Fee" which stops people spending daft amounts, yet still allows an element of development within a pre-set and agreed cost structure. The current teams need to be involved in setting a realistic figure, I know this will mean a very few teams will end up owning very expensive kit that has no market within the Sidecar world, but that is a price that has to be made. (We are currently writing some new Moto2 type rules for 600cc solos that may well provide a ready market for such systems)

Costs do need to be controlled, but you need to ensure that engines that are already tuned have an available market that doesn't destroy their residual value too much. No controls means that F2s will die as sure as the sun sets in the West, it's largely due to the profile of the TT that they became so popular and when you start to see numbers struggling there, the writing's on the wall.

My own view would be that in the British F2 Championship, the Super F2 Teams should be standard and the Clubmen should be allowed tuned engines. At the TT, anyone having previously been in the top 10 finishers should go Standard, teams having done the TT previously but not finishing in the top 10 should have free-engine rules for another year, newcomers should also be Standard (as they are theoretically only there to learn the course).

Going forward, anyone with a 2011 spec engine should not be allowed to tune it, thus naturally drying up the unused Tuned engine market over the next 3 years.

In the short term this will also close up the racing, as it has in F1 Sidecars and make it into a much better spectacle right through the field. This in turn attracts more competitors and makes the racing even better. The British love to queue and nothing creates demand more than a shortage of supply (in this case a shortage of available grid spaces).

But what do I know? ............. I'm just a diesel powered banana.

[Karl]

This makes intersting reading, from the ACU minutes 18th August 2009

R31 FII Sidecar Technical Regulations for 2011

Mr. Parker expressed concerns regarding stress levels on the engines currently used in FII machines. In particular at the Isle of Man TT races where these machines are now achieving speeds in excess of the FI machines that they originally replaced.

It was agreed that performance restrictions should be in incorporated into the F2 Specifications for 2010. Discussion will take place with the FSRA in an effort to identify both affordable and practical means of reducing the stress on FII engines. Mr Keith Whiting (FSRA Technical Officer) had put forward a paper containing his initial thoughts.

The matter will be discussed again at the next Committee meeting.

[Bob B]

I as going to suggest something similar to Dave Stewart that might go some way towards satisfying most teams - have two F2 classes, one for standard lumps and the rest. Just my 2 centimes worth ...

[SaintGear]

Simple answer is standard ECU's and blueprinting stock engines only. Might annoy the boys in the top paddock but would bring back a significant element of racing skill and raw pace to the sport instead of a reliance on pouring money into the engines & technology. In effect, it would be a budget cap in reverse. Lack of significant tinkering would bring the top speeds down.

Someone did mention something about the introduction of restrictor plates - THIS IS A BAD IDEA, especially if it's introduced ignoring the other engine issues. It will hurt the teams lower down that don't have the budget to spend the money on significant engine improvements.

I really don't like the two classes idea as it adds an element of elitism. You want something that benefits all and not the few.

Just my two penny worth.

[teamradar]

Standard ECU's are a bad idea. Has anyone got an engine to run properly without at least a power commander?

[steve-e]

Even in superstock solo classes they run power commanders don't they? I suppose I could check that rather than being based on supersport, base it on superstock maybe? Then the spectators will have some understanding.

[Bob B]

OK so Ppower Commanders and nothing else.

Two classes, tuned and standard will create elitism? Tosh or are the Cup riders in BSB classes second class citizens then? I think not, there are some damned good riders in the Cup classes.

[G JONES]

Standard ECU's are a bad idea. Has anyone got an engine to run properly without at least a power commander?

This is developing into an interesting discussion now...
I'm finding it quite difficult to understand though...
Would I be correct in assuming that none of the current crop of 4cyl 600cc 4 strokes are capable of running correctly when installed in a Sidecar ?
Makes me wonder why these "unsuitable" engines are being used at all....
Could someone please explain why (in simple terms) these engines are not able to run correctly in a Sidecar ? - surely they are being taken out of road bikes that run OK ?
Certainly seems like a lot of bother if you need to "Sump", "ECU", "Power Commander", "Motec", etc, to get a motor to run right ?
If we all want close competitive racing, full grids etc - maybe there needs to be a re-think ?
One of the most competitive classes years ago was the "Pro-Am" series - most will probably not remember it....
This was where a Truck full of identical 350 Yams were delivered to the circuit - the "Pro" & "Am" riders were allocated a bike - and racing began...
It certainly produced some very good, close racing - because it was simple - bikes were all virtually identical - and results were purely reliant on the rider's ability on the day.
I'm taking a guess here - but maybe there are no current engines available - that are suitable without extensive modification for Sidecar use ?
Makes me wonder if things have really progressed at all...