eligibility/engines allowed

[charlie2]

i have been to a few race meetings were the post classic/350 sidecars have raced and noticed while the 350`s tend to have a decent grid the post classic is rather poor.would it be benifical to extent/modify the class to allow 16v motors in, eg air cooled gsx1100et/ex 1979-1983 and maybe 500 adm/ krauser engined sidecars to run?.the gsx`s and adm/krausers could be restricted by size of carbs (easily checked) to reduce power and try and keep a level playing field with the tz750`s and gs1000/z1000`s but allowing a bigger variation of engines to be used,and hopefully make a bigger more competitive grid.i have spoken to stu mellor (mr eligibility/fairings man) regards this and he is open to it so just need a general opinion as if this is worth following this up.thanks

[steve-e]

I'm not personally involved in either class 350/PC but as an outsider would guard against the ADM/Krauser route. That would get pricey very fast. We have Dad's one still somewhere but running costs are a real consideration. No matter what restriction you put on intake sizes the things cost a sh!! load in clutch plates, rings.. almost twice that of a 350 lol.

I still don't think the big TZ's should be there but then that's just me I'm sure Greg will slap my head for that

[charlie2]

yes steve, i can see running costs are big on adm/krauser but the idea is just to see if people would come out in the p/c class if there was more choice in engines.there must be outfits parked up with gsx/ adm/krauser engines in that could be raced again if they had somewere to race in competitively.the carb size was an idea at restricing power rather than making them cheaper to run as pointless trying to bring more engine variations to the class if the outfits out there racing now stop racing because they are no longer competitive with the newer engined outfits.

[steve-e]

I can just see Ian W revving up for this thread
Cheers Charlie

[ianw]

Your right steve about the TZ 700/750's.
When they came into sidecar racing in the mid 70's they put every other engine on the scrap heap.
There was a specific ban on 4 cylinder 2 strokes, Konnig, TZ, Barton etc in Forgotten Era (Post Classic ) because of that very reason. Racing in F.Era was very close, 2 classes, twins & multis.
The GS1000 were let in which put a lot of the multi engines on the scrap heap, ie, Imps, Tridents Kettles etc.
Then the TZ 700/750's were let in & they put everything on the scrap heap.
History repeating itself.
Why on earth would the likes of Graham Waller who raced a period Triumph in FER & won the Twins Championship want to bring the bike back out & race against TZ 700/750's??
I had dealings with the Classic Club in the 90's as Eligibility Secretary for the Forgotten Racing Club, we had full grids when the Classic Club were struggling to put bikes on their grids.
We wanted to combine the classes but the Classic Club rejected the idea.
History has proved that was a very smart move, Post classic now get a handful of bikes on the grid ( TZ700/750's!!!) where as Classic Club get full grids.
Like the Classic Club, Forgotten Era should have had a cut off point & then the class might still be thriving today, but no, they allowed more & more engines into the class. If the likes of GSX, Krausers, ADM's are allowed into Post Classic then it wont be long befor people are saying, "What happened to the TZ's?"
Then how long would it be before the early long wheel based outfits were let in.
Sorry but Post classic/ FER lost it's direction & why it was conceived many years ago.
I've said this before & it's good to know that the TZ700/750's will never be allowed to race with the Classic Club

[G JONES]

i have been to a few race meetings were the post classic/350 sidecars have raced and noticed while the 350`s tend to have a decent grid the post classic is rather poor.would it be benifical to extent/modify the class to allow 16v motors in, eg air cooled gsx1100et/ex 1979-1983 and maybe 500 adm/ krauser engined sidecars to run?.

OK - here's another idea - why not just join in with the 350s ? - as you say grids have been better (for 350s) in 2010 than for some years - and if things turn out as expected - there will be even more coming out on 350s next year.
A few other things to consider - parts are reasonably easy to get hold of for the 350 - in some part due to the popularity of the engine in the solo historic GP class - many parts are being made new - including pretty much all the engine / gearbox internals (I've got brand new 3rd gears in stock )
Engine cases can be modified from road bike cases - there's still quite a few about (have a few sets myself )
I may be totally off beam here (nothing new ) - but as many 350s were modded to take 600s - is it doable to use some of the running gear to build a usable 350 ?
There is also at least one purpose built New 350 being built at the moment - somewhere in the Mansfield area.... - and I have started building another myself - so my Shelbourne will be for sale at a reasonable price eventually...
As for running later big motors in the PC class - restricted carbs were the weapon of choice to keep the 600s level with the 350s when they were imposed on the F2 class - don't remember that having much of an effect...??
I'm trying to understand why there needs to be a bigger choice of engines in the PC class - or is there a shortage of suitable (eligible) power units ?
Surely - if there are outfits sat in garages waiting to make an appearance - there must be suitable engines available somewhere to allow them out ?
I can remember watching Dave Holden at Mallory only a few years back (2005 I think) on a Short 500 2 stroke - and showing very respectable pace against Webbo, Abbott etc - so are you suggesting similar machines be allowed in to the PC class - or even LCR Krauser / ADM long bikes ?

[charlie2]

1st to ian,i raced in frc, remember 16" bmw father and son outfit ian?.i also remember a barton pheonix being run in frc at barkston heath and also remember a certain trident outfit beating gs1000 outfits on a regular basis,and also remeber an rgb puma that was quick with a respectable crew on board!.look at the classic club and they have evolved to allow newer engines in there sidecars,honda sohc,gt/tr750 kettle engines and there solo classes allow tz750/500 rg500 etc to run.having seen greg noble racing i dont think the tz`s will be beaten easily,59.3 at mallory .gs1000 and z1000 engines are drying up due to classic club allowing them in and xr69`s being built so prices and availability is getting worse.you could even put the adm gsx bikes in a separate class,problem sorted!.the other multis you mention ian would have been classic outfits running on 10" wheels so not exactly fair when someone is running 13" slicks modern chassis,so they went to the classic club.i get the feeling that if the class doesnt evolve then it will die!.
g jones, yes dave holden was very quick on his adm ireson,but bear in mind he was a very quick rider and i am 99% sure he had that ireson chassis from new!.i am not suggesting that long bikes are allowed,just conventional chassis.looked at the 350 class but a bike costs around 5k,when i could build a pc bike for around £1500!.i remember you racing 350`s years ago so you have all the parts/info/knowledge to built a good one.the only engines you can use to make a good sidecar engine are gs1000 or z1000 out of the four strokes.allowing the gsx engine in gives more options when buying another choice of engine.more available than gs/z and cheaper to buy and tune but big carbs they like hence why i mentioned at the start restriction on size of carbs and will also kill peak power on a 2 stroke!.

[anp]

Yes Gordon It was a great treat to watch Dave Holden even on his 700 chase the latest long bikes for a podium position I wish I could find one

[Bob B]

My sole contribution to this thread - I am with Ian W all the way

[Triplebrew]

gs1000 and z1000 engines are drying up due to classic club allowing them in and xr69`s being built so prices and availability is getting worse.

Not in the sidecar class they do not (and hopefully never will). The Honda is allowed but under very strict limitations. It is a formula that is clearly working judging by the size of grids.

[ianw]

Hi charlie2
Forgotten Era is dead & I'm afraid Post Classic as it is now called isn't far behind!
You & your dad remember the size of the grids we had in the 90's, full just like the classic club have now. Anyone of maybe 6 different engine types can win their races.
Post era, a TZ will win their races every time.
By all means start a new class with the multi 2 strokes in but it will never replace the Forgotten Era class the same as Post Classic has never replaced it.
Paul Hanson who rode the Barton Phoenix was given "Special Dispensation " by the FRC committee to race in the class, the rules allowed this as it was of significant interest. Say hello to your dad for me

[charlie2]

gs1000 and z1000 engines are drying up due to classic club allowing them in and xr69`s being built so prices and availability is getting worse.

Not in the sidecar class they do not (and hopefully never will). The Honda is allowed but under very strict limitations. It is a formula that is clearly working judging by the size of grids.

i never said the gs or zed were allowed in the sidecar class .but plenty of them in the solos!.yes ian will say hello to my dad for you when i see lord lucan again!! .yes good grids when we raced in the 90`s,good days them.all i am trying to do is get more bikes on the grid,but allow people to use a bigger variation of engines.at the moment there are 3 tz750 outfits,2 zed outfits and 2 gs1000 outfits so not exactly a massive grid of them.i am looking at building one but want to use an aircooled gsx1100 as i have an engine doing nothing but cannot see the point if it isnt eligible and buying and tuning a gs or zed is too expensive for me.Or i could borrow your rgb ian would be nice to hear from the pc guys and see what they think?

[ianw]

Charlie2, in the 90's I had so many people wanting to stick an engine in an outfit & run it in Forgotten era, those engines weren't eligible the same as your GSXR engine isn't eligible for Post Classic. They had the same justification as you, just because you have an engine "lying around" isn't justification for changing the rules.
As you point out the amount ( & definite lack of outfits on the grid ) of TZ's & GS's on the grid, they are the very engines that ruined Forgotten Era.
Sold the RGB Puma to a French guy last year, much to my regret.

[charlie2]

ian, its a gsx not a gsxr,gsx= aircooled 1979,gsxr= oil cooled 1986! also cannot believe you sold the rgb . what is a bit of a joke with the pc class is that you can run a kawasaki gpz1100 engine even though they werent out till about 1981 /82 but cannot run a gsx1100 engine that came out in 1979! .the gpz11 also had more power std than the gsx as well,gsx 111bhp gpz 122bhp.seems to be that clubs have a problem with 4 valves per cylinder even though rudges had them in the 1930`s! .the tz750`s are very expensive and hard to find now,and if they stoped racing in the pc sidecars there would be only 4 outfits left!.another point,if say the adm/krauser short outfits were made eligible do you think it would generate interest in the class if say dave molyneux, or steve webster came out to play occasionally?. i think most of the old frc outfits went abroad.i wonder if a gsx engined outfit would be eligible abroad?mmmm...................

[ianw]

Adam, the GSX1100 TSCC engine was the basis for a generation of Top fuel dragster engines, Pete Davies of Puma Engineering designed his Top fuel dragster engines around that design & are still to this day. I don't think there has been another engine that so much tuning gear has been available for. The starting point is, it's a 4 valve per cylinder, 4 cylinder engine with the perfect quish band. Pete Davies designed my Puma Weslake head around the GSX TSCC head.
Quick list of tuning gear-
Upto 85mm slipper billet pistons with anti seize coating
short stroke billet crank
Stainless steel slim stem valves
Anti "bouce" valve springs
Sculled cylinder head
Nicasil plated cylinders
The list is endless
Bottom line is , there isn't much difference between a GSX 1100 & a GSX 1100.