Can you help with the History of this outfit???

[John Hartell]

The unfaired outfit in the first photo is one of the first Tri-Sharks,I think it's Steve Daniel's old bike,driver unknown,the two colour photos are of my Jim Todd BSA from 1974.

[Jim Sinnott]

John the chair wheel appears a long way back on your BSA

Is that an Austin 1800 in the background

[John Hartell]

Not much lead on it is there Jim?A lot of the Busch BMW and Konigs had the sidecar wheel in a similar position.The car is a Morris 1800,my Dad's pride and joy in 1974.

[Jim Sinnott]

Nearly right John, the Morris had a slightly different grille to the Morris

Remember them rally crossing them at Lydden called them the land crab............ sorry im off topic

[sidecarracing]

very interesting this topic, please continue even if sometimes a bit offtopic about Morrises and Austins...

[steve-e]

That chair is a very long way back, that's almost a trike, guess there wasn't much understeer

[bikerjohn]

Thanks again John, those photo's are fantastic, the black and white Photo's front Brake set up and wheel is Identical to mine along with the mudguard mounts and frame tubes which pretty much confirms mine bike as one of the early ones from 71/2

The Sidecar wheel on your outfit is in a totally different position to mine which leads me to think that the chair wheel in that position was a later development along with 10" wheels all round as mention in your earlier post. Your rear swing arm is also different and look's much stronger. It's amazing to see how much development Jim Todd put in from 71-74

this raises a few further questions,

Were the Bike wheels 90 degrees vertical on your outfit as mine lean in towards the chair. I'm not sure if this was designed in or mine has developed a "list" to the port side with age...

Can you remember if Jim put and frame numbers on his bikes if so where on the frame?

Do you have any further photo's of the 16" wheeled TriSharks?

Once again thank you so much for everybodys help so far, John

[John Hartell]

Hello again John,the answer to your questions are...The front and rear wheels were originally vertical,your sidecar has bent upwards with age.As far as I know no frame numbers were ever used.I have no more photos of the 16" wheelers but here is one of Mick Joyce and Alan Collins on their Todd Suzuki following Steve Sinnott and Jim Williamson at Scarborough in 1976,the colour photo is a later shot of Mick's outfit fitted with wider 10" wheels taken at the 1978 TT and the last one is of Jim Todd's Saab outfit as raced by Terry Rudd and Henry West of Holbeach taken at Silverstone c1973.

[lang]

Here is a photo and a programme from the 1970 Cadwell Park August National meeting (Heat 1). Outfit number 10 is Neil Dawson and Danny Little on their J.T. Triumph. 27 is myself (Howard Langham) and Dave Johnson and the other outfit (number obscured) is Frank Godfrey and Derek Jacobson (Photo taken at Hall Bends). You will also see from the programme number 36 Mick and Len Parker were racing with their J.T. machine. (No photo unfortunately).

[John Hartell]

Twelve shillings (60p) admission to an International Car race meeting,what a rip off!

[chick marsh]

Twelve shillings (60p) admission to an International Car race meeting,what a rip off!

You will never see me paying more than ten bob to get in

[bikerjohn]

Howard thank you for you input, your picture opens another chapter in the History of these bikes as the Number 10 machine in the pictures sports a motorcycle Sidecar wheel that is similar in diameter to the front wheel of 16"

Firstly it proves that they were Racing in 1970 which I would guess proves that some chassis were made in the 60's. From the pictures I've seen these JT outfits evolved at an astounding rate.

1969? Large (poss 16") chair Wheel and front wheel.
1971/2 10" rear and chair wheel Rubber cone rear spring, basic rear damping mini drum brakes chair and rear.
1973/4 10" Wheels all round an expansion of engine types plus Bracing of the Swing arm, new rear damping, coil springs, disc rear brakes and a central fuel tank

Jim Todd was In my opinion a very talented frame maker with his finger on the pulse of cutting edge sidecar design. I'd love to compare his work with others from a similar time...

Apart from being astounded that this thread has had 1001 hits at the time of writing (thank you to everybody), I'm also getting sucked in and fascinated with the evolution of racing sidecars generally.

I'll sign off for tonight as I've got a mad busy day tomorrow, All the Best, John

[lang]

Most outfits from the late 1960s used 16" front and rear wheels, with 350x16 tyres, and 12" sidecar wheels, with 350x12 tyres. Dunlop discontinued the 350x12 sidecar race tyre in the early 1970s, but continued to supply the 400x12 tyre which had a very different tread pattern to the 16" tyres. I would think that the JT machine in the photo has a 12" sidecar wheel, incidentally I am sure your machine was racing regularly at Elvington auto 66 meetings in the 1980s.

[bikerjohn]

I've just found this from Elvington 1983 ish

The Red Outfit looks similar to mine George Calver and Matin Danby No 21 poss. 825cc Triumph
There a lot of programs from Elvington in this thread viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45398

Cheer's John

[sidecarf2]

My old man did have a TODD with an A65 in it,and my brother "STUART" and I shared the passengering.I'll try and get some more info on it,it may of been the first bike I passengered on in 1987 ish.God that makes me sound old