NOT sidecars, but relevant I feel.

[steve-e]

Michael Dunlop rode what people took as being an XR69 in the Classic TT. Really it wasn't, the rolling chassis was (remember when a bike chassis was a bike frame?) and to my mind it doesn't matter much what was in it, MD would have won had it had the engine in that was expected.
The reason I'm posting this is one of 'mission creep' that we (possibly just Bobert and meself ) refe to, and the references to the CRMC which some on here might not have seen.
Bruv was riding his Harris F1 in the same race with an EFE in it, but as that was built to ride at Phillip Island it's probably not to CRMC spec either, he's not bothered as he knows where he built it to race and was invited to run it at the Classic TT and got there and did it.

Just some interesting reading from John Sims on this thread (sorry couldn't link directly to the post, couldn't find the anchor)
http://www.iomtt.com/Home/Forum/ShowPos ... tID=343495

So what? It complied with the rules for the Classic TT. I didn,t make the rules, I dont agree with the rules but it was perfectly legal. Thats why nobody protested. It is a complete xr69 rolling chassis with a 1986 1052cc GSXR engine, as allowed by the Classic TT rules, it doesn,t matter if it ever raced back in the day, it didn,t need to. Is it too difficult for you to understand that?? Its not the Classic Racing Motorcycle Club. It was never described as an xr69 in the race program, have a look. It says 1100 Suzuki, what is misleading about that description???? I believe the CRMC rules are the ones that should have been used. I am sorry but 1992 or later ZXR 750s, RC30S etc are not Classics. I dont give a *** about the 'spirit of the regs' only whats written in black and white. If you dont like it complain to the organisers or race in the CRMC, dont whinge at me about it. If you want a period CRMC eligible xr69 look at our website (http://www.xr69.co.uk). An exact copy made from Mick Grants TT xr69. 99%of the parts are interchangeable with the original. Yes I could have raced one of those but if he rules said I could run a 1986 engine why wouldn,t I. If you want to run a VFR 1000 carry on, call it what you like, I wont be complaining, I am too busy building a faster engine for next year.....

So stop whinging, get over it and try harder next time !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will be!!!

[steve-e]

I think John likes the way CRMC do stuff for Classic eligibility, but reads the rules as well for other clubs/organisers.

[Bob B]

Interesting read. Mission creep eh? We certainly agree on that then. Oh to see and hear Granty on that 750 Kwacker triple!

To my mind there are two problematic areas with this whole 'Classic TT' thing:

1) An opportunity was spotted to make ever more money by running a 'populist' themed meeting to encourage visitors to the Island. Nowt wrong with that if it benefits the Island's entire economy but add to the coffers of leeches on the sport of motorcycle racing and increasing competitor costs is not only wrong but also immoral. Additionally it reduced the circuit time and events available to clubman riders for whom the Manx Grand Prix was originally intended, not for nothing was it known as the 'Clubman's TT'. I wonder just how many visitors for this event had actually ever seen the real period machines racing and may actually have known what they were really looking at. Classic racing? No the nearest that it ever came to was silhouette racing from a stand off point of a considerable number of tards! The obvious draw and money maker was persuading some of the top TT riders to get aboard these machines, increasing both their own personal earnings and that of the companies entering them.

2) The eligibility rules as to which machines would be allowed to enter the event seem to have been badly drafted and defined, if at all, and so loose in definition as to permit anything that vaguely resembled a post CRMC definition bike. CRMC rules could have been a good starting point with perhaps an extension of actual cut-off dates if the desire and nouse was present at the inception of the idea for the event to create a truly classic event. Who was exactly responsible for these regs and were any knowledgeable and reliable people consulted in the process, it is not exactly difficult to find and contact such folk. Hopefully, should this farce continue, then perhaps a little more thought, care and knowledge may brought to bear to ensure something nearer the truth of the period. Then again I doubt it due the ever overwhelming presence of the great god Mamon.


Please not that the foregoing are my thoughts and ideas alone and that Steve's Place has no responsibility in their compilation.

[tonybsa2008]

I was horrified to read in MCN sport of the Yam TZ750,with R6 front end and R6 rear wheel.Whats the piont?If you want an r6 or modern superbike handling,buy one.
Whatever I think of CRMC rules,surely,for the sake of the whole Classic movement,and everybody involved in it.1 common set of eligibility rules for all the events must make sense,and at the time of writing,one would assume the CRMCs rules would make the obvious starting piont.

[steve-e]

I think the CRMC at least make an effort and for the most part get it right. The problem really is there is no 'right' - that is entirely dependent on who you are, when you were born, what you think should be allowed so it's a judgement call. But the CRMC put a lot of effort into getting it as right as possible.

[Wal]

Ah ! now hang on a minute boys, you're missing a trick here ! Steve, you should know better, 'you should never let the facts spoil a good story' !! and Bob, what's wrong with 'Gospel of Mammonism' !! you are both applying far too much common sense here, and you know that never did anybody any good !

If you stand back and look at the bigger picture of the Classic TT as a whole, everything you say is relevant relative to what has been done in the past as in Bob's "Clubman's TT", but maybe the future is different:

Working on the Henry Ford premiss of: "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got."

Maybe the target for the ManxGP/Classic TT is not to recreate/emulate the TT races of yesteryear, or to have a TT stepping stone for club racers, but instead to create an event with an 'air of nostalgia' in the vain of the events at Goodwood, resulting in a 4 - 7 day event 'Motorcycle festival', packed with 'interesting'. .not necessarily 'wholly accurate' nostalgia.

Just sayin'

The opinions above are mine and not necessarily, those of anybody who knows what he/she's talking about.

Always remember: Nostalgia isn't what it used to be. . .it's all history now !

[Bob B]

If Wally's vision of the future is correct then why call it 'Classic' when it certainly is nothing of the sort, that is misleading the general public and the real bike nuts. Perhaps a more appropriate label might Bikes of Yesteryear or some such.

At the moment IMHO the label Classic TT is short for Classic Total Tripe.

[tonybsa2008]

The way Goodwood does it,they are more strict on having the correctperiod machinery,I believe(and I stand to be corrected)in the bikes your not even allowed belt drives,or electronic ignitions.EVERYTHING has to be as used in period.This is obviously,not what the "classic TT"is about.It would appear that its a cynical marketing exercise to capitilze on the popularity of classic racing in oreder to make money.Which,would be fine,if they used a set of rules,to at least keep things reasonably period,rather than a free for all.

[Jo Warriner]

So where does Wal propose the current MGP riders go?

[Bob B]

Agree with all foregoing comments totally.

Jo asks where does the Clubman's TT go from here? Sadly I believe that because of the contamination of corporate greed into that event the clubman element will gradually be phased out because the Classic Total Tripe event can and will be far more profitable for the organisers and the corporate sponsors than the MGP can ever be. I sincerely hope that I may be proven wrong but if not then please may I be allowed to say 'Told you so'

There are hundreds of kind, generous people who freely give their time to enable what was the MGP to run efficiently and successfully year on year with little or no reward and recognition apart from possibly a mention in a a very over-priced programme. These kind folk are now being taken advantage of for the ever more greedy ends of the greedy profit makers. How do they really feel about that, have some even considered that they are being cynically exploited?

On a personal level if I were one of those volunteers I would not under any circumstances have anything to do with this brave new world but continue to support just the actual MGP practice and race sessions only. Should everyone make this choice it might just demonstrate to the money-mongers the feeling about the new idea, not only that but how could the Classic Total Tripe even run without marshals, scrutineers and all the other cogs in the machine that make it run so smoothly?

[Jo Warriner]

I'd love to start my response with 'I'm not opposed to change' but I am! I'm Manx, I can't help it. I just don't like change!

However, it strikes me in life there is often the need for change. I'm not going to debate whether the MGP needed to change or not, as I feel that's off topic here. But now that change has taken place I'd say that is more the talking point. I'm not completely against change by any means! And I did enjoy the many and varied machines that passed through scrutineering. I also despaired of the state of many of them. I suppose that's what no entry fee brings. Some beautiful and rare machinery and some that are having a laugh and taking advantage of no entry fee. But it doesn't cost anything to clean a bike... I digress!

Looking at it from one point of view, why would you want to build and prepare a bike that was only eligible for the 'Classic TT'? For that reason alone following CRMC regs would seem to be the most sensible route. Otherwise you'll end up with an expensive class that barely races anywhere else (f2 sidecars being the nearest example I can think of ).

I read Paul Phillips tweeted that he has received lots of great feedback regarding the 'Classic TT'. I would hope that the many others who had negative feedback in the paddock and scrutineering bays would also open their mouths. Paul Phillips can't work on the negative stuff if it remains paddock gossip!

[petercaughlin]

Jo appears to be uneasy about being opposed to change,don`t be, the whole point of being a classic/vintage enthusiast is that we don't want to embrace change that's why we stick with the stuff we knew in our day,we are back again as ever to the age old problem of what is classic/vintage eligible and as ever the moment you try and do anything about it the rich cheats start moaning on about what`s .in their machines and why shouldn't they have it,People will immediately start saying that its impossible and unsafe to use period parts,and of course they are right but its not impossible to build a machine with new parts built to the specification of the period,so classic machinery would not be able to run ,belt drives, programmeable ignition and ECU`s.As far as this Classic TT goes I believe Bob B to be right it will end up like the Bikers Classic at Spa, we used to go to this for years and then the organisers realised that there was more money in having a load of old stars and rich has beens that to have grass roots racers so we were priced out.

Ah well sit back and wait for the brickbats to come flying

[Bob B]

Jo is right in that inherently people are very resistant to change of any sort. If however change is needed because something no longer fulfills the original criteria then things should be remedied to improve matters. Back to the old dictum of 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it', leave things alone and do not meddle just for meddling's sake. Don't get me wrong, I am not averse to change if, where and when change is needed.

The case in point of the MGP I do not believe was broke and certainly did not need fixing; it was very popular with riders, officials of all sorts and visitors as well. Reiterating briefly my earlier post change was enforced because the greed merchants and money men saw another opportunity to swell already burgeoning coffers, yet another example of knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Enough banging on from me, my views are clear, yet again changes are being inflicted on racing which are not for the better of the sport itself.

[tonybsa2008]

Peter,what you say about building new parts to the period specification is spot on,and that should apply to ALL the CRMC classes as well.

[Bob B]

Agreed Tony, might be nice to get back to somewhere near the original ideals - can't see it happening though.